Bots and Gold sellers

[mAlice]

Originally Posted by Kolossus

They really banned people for reporting botting/cheating/complaining about them not enforcing their EULA? >.>;

The best answer I can give you is this:

NCSoft Being Sued for 100million USD. - CGE Network

In case the above link does not work for you here is a copy of the article:

Date Sunday, 09 July 2006 194251 CDT
Topic Lineage News - All Versions

NCSOFT CORPORATION sued for $100M in a Class Action filing related to the company’s MMORPG Lineage2 San Mateo, California June 5, 2006 ? NCSOFT North America was named in a lawsuit seeking class-action status in United States District Court for the Central District of California. The lawsuit seeks $100M in exemplary and punitive relief and contends that NCSOFT CORPORATION a South Korean Company breached its contractual obligations, engaged in false advertising, and committed credit card fraud in connection with its Massive Multi-player Online Role Playing Game MMORPG Lineage 2.

The suit was brought forward by 28 year old Brian Durin, after his Lineage 2 account was terminated by NCSOFT without any justification, notification, refund, or means of recourse. The 227 page lawsuit alleges On March 12, 2006, Durin’s Lineage2 account was terminated by NCSOFT without any provision of an explanation or notification. Durin had spent over 500 hours in playing and leveling his online character in the online world of Lineage 2.

His repeated attempts to solicit an answer from the company as to the reason for his account termination was met with silence. Durin argues that NCSOFT’s actions are in violation of its own End User License Agreement EULA. Additionally, that the company violated the player-provider contract by terminating his account without providing any justification for the termination, or a method of recourse for him to pursue. He contacted NCSOFT, and PLAYNC the online billing/receivables for the company for a refund of the unused portion of his “gaming time” and was told by the company that no refund would be issued.

His credit card continued to be charged for additional months even though he could not play. Refunds for the additional charges were not refunded as well. The suit claims that NCSOFT’s action surrounding it’s credit card charging process constitutes fraud. Durin’s lawsuit further contends that he bought the game without knowing that hundreds of automated characters, referred to in the community as “bots”, were rampant throughout the online world. That these bots, referred to as a “3rd party program” within the game’s EULA, made it impossible to enjoy the game, hampered leveling a character, and was never mentioned in the companies EULA or marketing that a player would be subjected to these automated characters bots.

153 Articles of Evidence were entered with the lawsuit showing in detail that NCSOFT was fully aware that these bots were prevalent within the Lineage 2 game. Records of the Lineage2 forum site were provided showing how the company censors and deletes any topics/threads/posts related to the discussion of bots within the game’s environment. Some articles even detail how an internal NCSOFT employee used a bot, to level their own character. An affidavit of support attesting to the allegations made in the lawsuit was attached from Ki Su Lin, a former South Korean GameMaster for NCSOFT Korea. Lin claims that NCSOFT knowing allows a certain percentage of bots to exist in Lineage2 for game economics as well as the company’s own profit based agenda.

Lin states that when he started to work for the company last year, he banned every bot that was petitioned when a players sees a bot, they have the ability to petition a GameMaster online to remove the bot but was quickly told by the Head GameMaster HGM to cease with his activities. In the ensuing 9 months of his employment he was only able to terminate nine 9 accounts for botting the process of running a bot in-game.

He states that he received in excess of 2000 petitions related to botting from characters but was instructed to only investigate the petitions and not to terminate any accounts. In Lin’s affidavit, he states “NC made it clear to me that they didn’t want to ban the bots because it would mean lost revenue for them. I think that the bots make up anywhere from 30 to 40 of the community. So banning the bots would result in a 40 decrease in revenue. Everybody knew this, and accepted it.” The affidavit also states that NCSOFT engaged in deceptive practices related to preventing the proliferation of bots in Lineage 2.

Lin refers back to a memo he received, “The memo said that there was to be now public acknowledgement of the botting problem. Any public questions about bots in the game were to be answered with ‘we’re working on it.’” Lin’s account of banning players detailed, “Anytime a player started making too much noise about botting or anything like that we banned them. I thought it was unfair but that’s what we were told to do. No player was allowed to talk about bots in the forums, or name a person that was botting. When a player always petitioned us, we would call them a “pet” and sometimes we banned them because they would rally other players to petition us about bots. We really couldn’t have that.”

Durin insists he never used a 3rd party program, himself as he accessed Lineage2 exclusively at Internet Cafes that have imaged drives and don’t facilitate the use of Bots in any of the games that they host on their computers. That he never conducted himself in any type of behavior that would have resulted in an account termination. He believes his termination may be related to the dozens of petitions he sent to the online GMs everyday he played. Over eighteen 18 pages containing 211 signatures from players whose accounts have been terminated, received credit card charges, no refunds, and no explanations was entered in support of the Plaintiff’s motion seeking Class Action status.

Also attached to the suit was a Motion to Subpoena the records of NCSOFT concerning its billing policies and policies related to the conduct of its GameMasters in regards to bots and account terminations and all records evidencing 3rd party programs. The suit seeks relief by 1. $100M in damages 2. Immediate investigations/banning of 3rd party programs 3. Instituting justification / refunds / redress for players The suit was served to NCSOFT by Federal Marshals at their Los Angles location on June 2, 2006. John Crittenden of Cooley Godward LLP, NCSOFT’s Attorneys issued no comment or statement concerning the suit.

Btw. does anyone know how that lawsuit ended? My guess is NCSoft gave the guy some money to shut him up, and told him that if he didn't, they would sue him in return for some obscure reasons.

But that's just my guess. Does anyone know the truth? I think a Community Coordinator would know, but I doubt he/she could tell us without loosing the job.

[Tal Rasha]

Originally Posted by mAlice

But that's just my guess. Does anyone know the truth? I think a Community Coordinator would know, but I doubt he/she could tell us without loosing the job.

A community coordinator who worked for L2 will definately not be posting about this issue on this Aion fanbased message board.

I find some of the claims of what you quoted hard to believe. Especially the parts about banning players for reporting bots. Because if that Lin wasn't allowed to ban a bot for subscription income reasons, why would banning someone who reported a bot be ok? It contradicts.

[mAlice]

Originally Posted by Tal Rasha

A community coordinator who worked for L2 will definately not be posting about this issue on this Aion fanbased message board.

I find some of the claims of what you quoted hard to believe. Especially the parts about banning players for reporting bots. Because if that Lin wasn't allowed to ban a bot for subscription income reasons, why would banning someone who reported a bot be ok? It contradicts.

In L2 you could easily find over 20 bots to report within an hour.

So, who would you ban? The 20 bot accounts or the one irritating maniac that keeps sending you a $hitload of tickets daily and won't shut up about it on the forums?

[Tal Rasha]

Originally Posted by mAlice

In L2 you could easily find over 20 bots to report within an hour.

So, who would you ban? The 20 bot accounts or the one irritating maniac that keeps sending you a $hitload of tickets daily and won't shut up about it on the forums?

Thats just it. There can not be 1 irritating maniac that reports bots.

If there are 20 bots, then there are most probably 200+ maniacs who will complain about them. If bots keep terrorizing a game, the number of report maniacs will grow.

[mAlice]

Originally Posted by Tal Rasha

Thats just it. There can not be 1 irritating maniac that reports bots.

If there are 20 bots, then there are most probably 200+ maniacs who will complain about them. If bots keep terrorizing a game, the number of report maniacs will grow.

It might be news to you, but normal players are much much more afraid of ban than RMTs. Thus easier to silence with such forceful measures.

[gguus]

Originally Posted by Tal Rasha

Thats just it. There can not be 1 irritating maniac that reports bots.

If there are 20 bots, then there are most probably 200+ maniacs who will complain about them. If bots keep terrorizing a game, the number of report maniacs will grow.

I don't think you have ever played L2 on official.. Am I right? =)

In L2, at least on my server, botting was pretty much tolerated (you know, like the drugspolicy on Holland). Sure there are some people who are "OMG I'M LEGIT AND I REPORT EVERYBODY WHO ISN'T", but NCsoft doesn't actually listen to your complaints, so eventually even those super legit people will do something that's against the EULA.

For every 1000 bots there are 1000 players, and only a few of those 1000 players will be the type of maniac like you described. So it's a lot more profitable for nc to just ban those few anoying players who keep on complaining everywhere about the bots, than actually banning the bots.

Gotta love it <3

[Ecronyte]

Yeah. And in L2 sending in tickets was a pain in the butt. You had to write out a statement, including names (which could be names like illillilillilli, lclwnjbjz, llllllllllllllll, etc.) Bot parties ran in groups of 9 in L2, and in some of the dungeons they were in ever room, sometimes multiple groups in a single room.

Once you sent in a ticket, it was a long while until you got an automated response. Weeks, maybe months later the bots would still be there. When you do that month after month, you become desensitized to them. Apathetic. Some people got outraged about it. But they usually either left the game, or flipped out on the forums (which doesn't achieve anything).

In the beginning there might have been a lot of those "maniacs", but now players just don't care. Most have their own ways of dealing with bots. They train them, kill them, ask them to leave the room. Some of the larger alliances even protect them, in return for money and exp I'm sure. This far in, the "maniacs" are a vast, vast, minority.

[Mark]

NCsoft's policy of banning people of who make too much noise about their questionable activities is widespread. I was banned from the Exteel forums for *****ing about GameGuard, the spyware NCsoft uses to "stop" botting in L2 and Exteel, and probably more of their games. Needless to say, it doesn't work and it's malware/spyware/virus-like. So I made a ruckus and got banned within a few minutes of the second beta going live. I think I was the first one to get banned.

I ought to sue, but then Aion wouldn't get released. If Aion does get released with GameGuard, though, I personally would consider a class-action suit.

[mAlice]

Originally Posted by Ecronyte

In the beginning there might have been a lot of those "maniacs", but now players just don't care. Most have their own ways of dealing with bots. They train them, kill them, ask them to leave the room. Some of the larger alliances even protect them, in return for money and exp I'm sure. This far in, the "maniacs" are a vast, vast, minority.

Right. And you know? The RMTs say that they are not doing anything wrong with botting and that they help some people, who don't have that much time, enjoy the game, but deep down everyone feels that there is just something wrong with it.
Why make a game like that at all? With parts that are so boring that you are willing to pay to skip it. Is such a game any good at all? Isn't it just some kind of masochism?

And after some time you quit. Sometimes you return because of the longing for the L2 THAT COULD BE. But then you quit again. And think to yourself "maybe they won't mess up L3"...

But they will mess up.

Considering that we are talking about NCSoft, here is my realistic opinion:
I think I would not have as much problem with RMTs if they didnt use bots. I saw the documentary about Gold Sellers and they are hard working people. I kind of almost respect them.
Actually I would prefer it if NCSoft officialy opened a Game Mall, Item Shop or whatever they are called and really started dealing with RMTs and bots.
Can you hear that NCSoft? I like your games so much that I'm stupid enough to pay a subscription AND for ingame stuff... Oh wait, I'm doing it already, ain't I.

[Tal Rasha]

Originally Posted by gguus

I don't think you have ever played L2 on official.. Am I right? =)

Yes, I have not played L2 at all.

But I don't have to have played it to deduce illogic reasoning. If they don't want to ban bots because they don't want to lose income, then they should for the same reason not ban players for submitting complains. A better option for them that would not cost them the income is to simply ignore the complains. If it's one person making many complains, they can ignore him automated while still taking his subscription money.

From what I have read in this topic I get the idea that L2 is 90% bots and 10% non complaining players.

[mAlice]

Originally Posted by Tal Rasha

From what I have read in this topic I get the idea that L2 is 90% bots and 10% non complaining players.

Nah, it's about 30-40% bots and 60% players, some of which occasionaly run amok at the system.

Also, if you had read the lawsuit carefully you would notice that although they banned players, they still deduced money from their account for quite some time later. So you keep the bots, ban the whiner (dunno, maybe NCSoft owners get some kind of perverse satisfaction from it, not everything can be explained with logic) and take his money anyway, which might not be as easy had he cancelled his account himself.

[gguus]

Originally Posted by Tal Rasha

Yes, I have not played L2 at all.

But I don't have to have played it to deduce illogic reasoning. If they don't want to ban bots because they don't want to lose income, then they should for the same reason not ban players for submitting complains. A better option for them that would not cost them the income is to simply ignore the complains. If it's one person making many complains, they can ignore him automated while still taking his subscription money.

From what I have read in this topic I get the idea that L2 is 90% bots and 10% non complaining players.

Well.. this is just a guess but here I go:

If NC doesn't ban the whiners, they will keep on bringing up the topic of bots, thus creating negative publicity (ok, banning them isn't really good publicity either >_>).

Not sure on any of this though, nc is like the mob, you know nothing about them but still they take your money =)

[Ecronyte]

Originally Posted by Tal Rasha

Yes, I have not played L2 at all.

But I don't have to have played it to deduce illogic reasoning. If they don't want to ban bots because they don't want to lose income, then they should for the same reason not ban players for submitting complains. A better option for them that would not cost them the income is to simply ignore the complains. If it's one person making many complains, they can ignore him automated while still taking his subscription money.

Well 1 guys monthly fee is insignificant to 9, 18, 27 +++++ bots monthly fees. And there is a very good reason to ban the vocal player. He could eventually hurt your business. If he goes on the forums and spams general discussion with bot rants. People looking into playing L2, who might look at the forums first, will be scared off. Or maybe he starts gaining support and people take some sort of action against NCsoft. Or the arguing could just cause bad sentiment with NC, and cause them to lose players. Its just better for them to tuck away their problems and disputes. So that on the surface everything seems pleasant.

[Tal Rasha]

And there is a very good reason to ban the vocal player. He could eventually hurt your business.

I'm surprised you think that way.
Banning players who don't cheat surely creates a lot more negative publicity than banning bots.
Why would banning the vocal player stop him from hurting your business? If he spams the forums, they could just ban him from the forums for spamming reasons. If he takes another route to hurt the business, then banning him won't stop him from doing so.

they still deduced money from their account for quite some time later.

It is his own fault for not checking his credit card balance at least monthly or for not taking a credit card insurance.
If I would be banned from a game that I subscribe to, the first thing I would do is block the credit card money transfers by that company.

[Ecronyte]

I'm surprised you think that way.
Banning players who don't cheat surely creates a lot more negative publicity than banning bots.
Why would banning the vocal player stop him from hurting your business? If he spams the forums, they could just ban him from the forums for spamming reasons. If he takes another route to hurt the business, then banning him won't stop him from doing so.

Hey, I don't think its a good way to do business. I don't even think it is very effective. Thats just how it is.

If I was NCsoft, I would be worried the innocent people I ban would come back to bite me in the butt (like in this lawsuit). That they would cause more of a problem after being banned than they would have before.

But we aren't talking about what I would do. We are talking about whats right, or what makes the most sense. We are talking about NCsoft, and the practices disclosed in this lawsuit. I am only speculating. But it makes sense to me that, from the evidence at hand, and my experience in L2. They would act in the way I described.

If a player was way too vocal on the forums. And was consistently spamming the forums, and causing a scene . They would ban him from the forums. If that was enough I'm sure they would stop there. But my guess is the person then goes into the game, and spams shout about how NC is unfair and has banned him on the forums for nothing. NCthen might ban that person.

Yeah that person might turn around and try to expose what NC did. But there aren't many outlets for him. The unofficial L2 forums are typically not to friendly or caring. And he will most likely be dismissed as someone who just got banned for botting or exploiting and is just trying to take his frustration out on NCsoft. Some people might believe him, but that doesn't guarantee that anything will happen. And some people may believe him but will simply not care.

As the lawsuit demonstrates, sometimes treating people that way will come back and bite you in the ***. So there ya go.