Bots and Gold sellers

[Hellriser]

Originally Posted by alazar14

Iv played L2 on free servers with double xp its the only way I could handle the long boring grind, And I only got to 20 because it was still boring lol....Anyways I also Was able to hack on GG and trust me im no hacker, I did google Gameguard glitch and it just came up, A site devoted to how to hack gameguard and Xtrap.....kinda funny..I hope these guys in Aion use some high tech bad *** security.

Lineage II's GameGuard can be fixed, with no possibility of running ANY cheating program. It has been made by a private server and believe me, it works
So here we shouldn't be talking about how badass the security should be, but how much does the actual monthly revenue comes from botters + how much is the company willing to let botters on the servers. Take the case of retail Lineage II for example, where a percent of the botters is deliberately let to play, just because they cover like 25% of the monthly revenue of the game.
The games aren't made for our fun, are made for the incomes. This is just a good side effect If we would think tomorrow that smashing glass on the pavement would be more fun than gaming, in a matter of years we will see companies that produce glass everywhere and Sony would have to reroll, heh.

[alazar14]

Smashing glass on pavement is a blast though.....

[Ipmia]

Lineage II's GameGuard can be fixed, with no possibility of running ANY cheating program. It has been made by a private server and believe me, it works

90% of privates servers uses a emulation of the game. its not the core code of the original game.

[Unforsaken87]

Alot of you dont realize that if the game was programmed to allow you to do something, you can do it. Vice Versa. Though in some cases things can be hacked, programs changed and what not, but the company can fix it.
I bet alot of you heard about the Grand theft auto "Hot Coffee" thing? That was put into the game, but was never meant to be in the actual game so they hide it. A hacker opened it up. This couldnt have been done without that hidden file already put into the game. Now, games like NWN, not sure if Lineage 2 has it, has a open program system. Where RL people can program their own things into the game. Even if Lineage 2 didnt have this, thats where private servers come into play, where this can be done. Despite all of this, GMS can tell who are bots and who arent.

[Ipmia]

Originally Posted by Unforsaken87

Alot of you dont realize that if the game was programmed to allow you to do something, you can do it. Vice Versa. Though in some cases things can be hacked, programs changed and what not, but the company can fix it.
I bet alot of you heard about the Grand theft auto "Hot Coffee" thing? That was put into the game, but was never meant to be in the actual game so they hide it. A hacker opened it up. This couldnt have been done without that hidden file already put into the game. Now, games like NWN, not sure if Lineage 2 has it, has a open program system. Where RL people can program their own things into the game. Even if Lineage 2 didnt have this, thats where private servers come into play, where this can be done. Despite all of this, GMS can tell who are bots and who arent.

its even worse with lineage since they are using the UT engine.... who never played with the console of the engine ? while most of the commands are hided its still a engine very easzy to hack for someone with basic coding skills.

[Hellriser]

Originally Posted by Ipmia

90% of privates servers uses a emulation of the game. its not the core code of the original game.

Then it seems you didn't explored the private server world enough. I am talking about a server that's using the lastest big leak of Lineage II server files: the C4 PTS files + some other minor leaks. It's 100% off, no L2j or L2 C++ emu. I hate that kind of servers. And Unforsaken87 is totally right. In fact, I think that NC Soft developed the L2Java emu servers and deliberately leaked the C4 PTS server, just for some good publicity.

Originally Posted by Ipmia

its even worse with lineage since they are using the UT engine.... who never played with the console of the engine ? while most of the commands are hided its still a engine very easzy to hack for someone with basic coding skills.

Hack the engine, maybe. But reporduce the gameplay and physics of a game, now that's hard and lots of info to collect - for mmos. As for games like Grand Theft Auto, let the imagination begin!

[Ipmia]

Originally Posted by Hellriser

Then it seems you didn't explored the private server world enough. I am talking about a server that's using the lastest big leak of Lineage II server files: the C4 PTS files + some other minor leaks. It's 100% off, no L2j or L2 C++ emu. I hate that kind of servers. And Unforsaken87 is totally right. In fact, I think that NC Soft developed the L2Java emu servers and deliberately leaked the C4 PTS server, just for some good publicity.

Hack the engine, maybe. But reporduce the gameplay and physics of a game, now that's hard and lots of info to collect - for mmos. As for games like Grand Theft Auto, let the imagination begin!

as long as oyu have soem basics skills and know how to use a snifer ( L2 wasnt scripted at first) it s easy... i remmember a friend of mine telling me how easy he could automate stuffs in the game.. and that was back in japanese beta .. way before it even came in the US.

[Hellriser]

Originally Posted by Ipmia

as long as oyu have soem basics skills and know how to use a snifer ( L2 wasnt scripted at first) it s easy... i remmember a friend of mine telling me how easy he could automate stuffs in the game.. and that was back in japanese beta .. way before it even came in the US.

Prelude sucked ***. I think they scripted the info between the client and the server when the released C1.. or later..dunno. Anyway.. the fact is: what can be done, can be also undone. In our case, the security developement team could've add patches to the security so all the known sniffers/bots/etc. couldn't function anymore.
I gave an example of 3 people that totally blocked all known hacking,botting, you name it software for Lineage II. And I refuse to think that the dev staff on NC Soft.. that do this for a living, just can't do it. Let's get real.
As for sniffing info and transfering it to your own private server, it isn't that easy. Trust me.. I know And coding is a b1tch.

[Otomox]

I would be happy if they would handle it like in WoW. I dont like WoW in general but their game master strike good agianst bot user. I know some ppl which tryed to bot in L2 and in WoW. In WoW max. time u could bot on was 2 Weeks u got mostly banned after that. In Lineage 2 they are running bots since C3 and never got banned.....

[Rayvr]

why would you want to but money for a game? i think thats the stupidest idea ive ever heard. if you take mmo's that seriously then you must get out more cuz u have no life

[Isley]

Originally Posted by Rayvr

why would you want to but money for a game? i think thats the stupidest idea ive ever heard. if you take mmo's that seriously then you must get out more cuz u have no life

"why would you spend 15hrs a day in a game? i think thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard. if you take mmo's that seriously then you must get out more cuz u have no life"

Ever tought about it like that from a gold buyers' perspective?

My opinion on bots and gold sellers is simple: they are simply doing what any other business does; they supply a demand. As long as people with 10,000$ creditcards are demanding gold and powerlvl services, you can be damn sure their will be people supplying it to them.

It's really not hard to draw the concept of gold farming on paper the solutions to it are very easy as well. It's just that everything surrounding gold farming is subject to much taboo's and controversy, so alot of mmo companies rather practice willful blindness than actually step up and act. As long as 10,000 bots get banned per month the players will stay anyway, and the farmers? They will buy another 10,000 accounts next week

[Luscien]

In life when you over complicate things usually nothing is solved. The key to the Bot problem is no diffferent. The term MMO means community based online experience. That, is to say that what happens in any MMO experience is happening in a shared alternate reality, don't forget what are playing for. Therefore, we the players should govern that reality not the "GM"s, the "GM"s should be responsible for technical resolutions and game play isssue's and nothing more. Who should determine the issue or solution to the bots should be us the players and the game makers should empower us to do so. The problem is most MMO games are NPC driven and governed, yet PVP enabled, and that is one of the main conflicts that doesnt allow for a full alternate reality experience. The other is, the rules of engagement regarding PVP and the RED factor. Either have pvp in an alternate reality game or not. PVP is PVP not partial or pvp here and not there. The western part of the United States of America was founded on PVP, real PVP (life is pvp) and there were no colors that protected settlers from Indians or Bandits you adapted and learned to survive otherwise you died. Nevertheless, the reason why the Bots are so prevelent in most MMO games especially in lineage 2, first is due to the fact that the Botters are capable of receiving greater rewards and benefits for their endevours and time than we the normal players are. Empower us to have mutiple toons or characters in party mode and allow us to "Bot" legally by creating a sofisticated macro and even micro system enabling 1 person to create different characters and fight in formations and groups either in pvp or pve or both. This will allow even a lower level person to hunt in areas otherwise unattainable and come to learn and appreciate what every class of character in his alternate world has to bring to the table instead of leveling the same class of character for 2-3 years and not knowing anything else. This would also allow a more experienced player a way to form a team and battle other teams without having to wait for other players to join up, they can assemble their troops and go and battle for points, exp, adena and so forth. Our form death squads and do nothing but Bot kill using a team and yes let there be exp and items that can be won from it why not? Right now there is no exp given for pvp does that make any sense? Second, NC SOFT should not be responsible to eliminate Bots it should be us that are empowered to kill every single BOT that looks to exploit our alternate reality because cheaters are not welcome and who best to police that but us the players. Third, lower the standard, there is no reason why prices should be so unattainably high for weapons and armor that is probably one of the most important driving factors to the whole Botting issue because that creates a high demand and that high demand creates pedators and capitalists who actually derive an income from such things.

[Isley]

Originally Posted by Luscien

In life when you over complicate things usually nothing is solved. The key to the Bot problem is no diffferent. The term MMO means community based online experience. That, is to say that what happens in any MMO experience is happening in a shared alternate reality, don't forget what are playing for. Therefore, we the players should govern that reality not the "GM"s, the "GM"s should be responsible for technical resolutions and game play isssue's and nothing more. Who should determine the issue or solution to the bots should be us the players and the game makers should empower us to do so. The problem is most MMO games are NPC driven and governed, yet PVP enabled, and that is one of the main conflicts that doesnt allow for a full alternate reality experience. The other is, the rules of engagement regarding PVP and the RED factor. Either have pvp in an alternate reality game or not. PVP is PVP not partial or pvp here and not there. The western part of the United States of America was founded on PVP, real PVP (life is pvp) and there were no colors that protected settlers from Indians or Bandits you adapted and learned to survive otherwise you died. Nevertheless, the reason why the Bots are so prevelent in most MMO games especially in lineage 2, first is due to the fact that the Botters are capable of receiving greater rewards and benefits for their endevours and time than we the normal players are. Empower us to have mutiple toons or characters in party mode and allow us to "Bot" legally by creating a sofisticated macro and even micro system enabling 1 person to create different characters and fight in formations and groups either in pvp or pve or both. This will allow even a lower level person to hunt in areas otherwise unattainable and come to learn and appreciate what every class of character in his alternate world has to bring to the table instead of leveling the same class of character for 2-3 years and not knowing anything else. This would also allow a more experienced player a way to form a team and battle other teams without having to wait for other players to join up, they can assemble their troops and go and battle for points, exp, adena and so forth. Our form death squads and do nothing but Bot kill using a team and yes let there be exp and items that can be won from it why not? Right now there is no exp given for pvp does that make any sense? Second, NC SOFT should not be responsible to eliminate Bots it should be us that are empowered to kill every single BOT that looks to exploit our alternate reality because cheaters are not welcome and who best to police that but us the players. Third, lower the standard, there is no reason why prices should be so unattainably high for weapons and armor that is probably one of the most important driving factors to the whole Botting issue because that creates a high demand and that high demand creates pedators and capitalists who actually derive an income from such things.

If you ever plan on becoming a news writer... I can tell you right now: you have failed.

P A R A G R A P H S

[elliot]

Botting/Game currency trading are like a virus that every single MMO company has to deal with. There has been many attempts to stomp them out, but they are very complicating issues. We, as players, should be aware of the complexity of this issue and not just critisize the companies.

1. You can't just "ban" them all.
For those of you who played l2, you all probably know the certain type of behaviors that bots possess, such as hitting guards/delvling or being in straight lines while killing mobs. Bots always have a distinguishable behavior from regular players. Lineage 1 bots had stiff movements. Now that brings out the question: why don't they just ban them all? Note that by saying this, its like saying we should kill all Arabs cuz some of them are terrorists. That was somewhat of a extreme example, but yea. By enforcing harsh punishments on bots, the enforcer team is bound to ban some innocent players.

In certain games, the "bot behaviors" are also shared by certain players. (bad connection, can't speak english, being retarded) As the enforcers cannot go barging into people's rooms to check to see what they are actually doing, it is sometimes somewhat difficult to be sure.

Note this. Bots always come back, while real players sometimes don't.

2. Why should they?
All game companies knows this: bots/incurrency trading are extremely hard to stop and if it was possible, it takes a lot of resources to do it. Having an army of monitors to watch everything in game is very expensive, especially for games that are massive like WoW/Lineage II. Not only that you have to develop a efficient system and procedures dealing with these issues(finding a bot, banning a bot, having a "court" to which possible innocents could appeal at), you have to train the workers. So why should they spend so much resource and effort to defeat this seemingly indestructable enemy? Players are complaining? so? People who play still plays. A profitable amount of players still play lineage despite the unsolved bot issue.

3. Its our fault.
Why is there ingame currency trading sites? Because people buy it. Why are there bots? To produce ingame currency for people to buy and to achieve something in a easy way. Note how everything links back to the actual players. Don't like bots? then stop buying stuff from them. Now YOU might say I DON'T, but there's countless others who do. As long as there are people who buy them, there will be sellers. Bot is a tool to support this evil cycle.

Another problem is that us, the players don't have a real power against the company. Swarm of whiners on forums aren't gonna make them change. We need to show that we mean business, by stop playing the game or taking some kind of organized action. We don't have this. Few individuals will participate in a boycott or anything. People who play will still play no matter what you say. This was witnessed in l2 a couple times. A player in Bartz server had started a petition against NCsoft to deal with the bot issue. Result? He got banned for spamming the forums as he tried to fight the admins deleting his post. People got scared and it died out. The MMOs tend to have a very poor community and organization.
Let's face it. Most of us are just gonna sit in the forums and whine. We can't possibly risk our precious characters that we spend months on.

4. It's part of what makes the game fun.
Most of MMOs have "economies". People sell and buy gear. The game items begin to have certain values. It makes more fun for us players to hunt for these items, invest time on them and know that they are worth something. However, the game economy is the thing that fuels game currency trading and botting. Sometimes you can't afford that godly sword that you want because it will take 1000000 hours of killing a mushroom. You don't have the time or you don't want to spend that much time. "Hey, why can't I just buy it w/ real life money?" and it goes on from there.

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A very effective way of preventing botting/game currency trading is to NOT have a game economy, but this is not an option for most games. It takes away certain fun factors.

Some people say, "hey why not make a perfect bot prevention program?" "Gameguard is ****. NCsoft sucks." For those of you, Why do you think softwares have "updates"? Why do you think Microsoft releases security patches and anti-virus/adware softwares constantly print out new definition updates? Because there are people who do the opposite thing that they do, and unfortunately for the corporates, some of them are better than them at it. Not a single dev team in the face of the universe managed to produce an uncrackable software. If a dev team is to make a software that prevents bot programs, they'll constantly have to check for new bots and make new codes to stop them, which would require a large staff/resource/constant update releases for players.(which brings us back to the part "why should they do it?" Hey companies like Norton and Webroot dedicate their ENTIRE staff in checking for new threats and coming up with solutions and the work never ends. How do you think NCsoft could do it? Like I said before, there's no magical program that stops all bots. A man makes a bullet proof vest and his neighbor makes armor peircing rounds :s

Bot/Game currency trades are part of MMOs. I think we'll just have to live with it.

[Isley]

Very well said... elliot.