Who actually enjoys grinding?

[Cynthe]

Originally Posted by Endrance

At least, don't make soloing more efficient than grouping, cause I just cannot enjoy the primitive permanent monotonous solo grind. And you must also admit that I am on the minor side, as most MMORPGs support the solo grind way more than actual grouping, so I have a reason to say something against it.

That I agree with, it would destroy much of the game, just like forced grouping kills the game for some. Heh I don't know if most MMOs really do support solo grind, one comes to mind, but as I said I play EQ2 where it's possible to enjoy both styles and both are fun and you level pretty much the same. But that maybe have to do with XP for quests, collections, exploration ect... You get XP for pretty much anything in that game, which to me is overkill!! -.- I'm all for mob XP and questing XP but that's it, anymore then that and you fall into the problems you are afraid of.

Did I just contradict myself? ^^ Anyway what I meant to say is that in game I meet people who only solo and people who only group and some who do both, at this time there seems to be a good balance in play styles which is even more true if you have a nice guild.

EDIT: To the poster above, yes!!! You actually do need a grind of a kind, otherwise you will have unhappy people whining the game is too easy and such, as seen in the LotrO forums which is why we have reputation grinds....

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Disrupter

Grinding is more than just levelling. Grinds can include reputation levels with differing factions, farming money, levelling, running the same dungeon repeatedly for gear, so on and so forth. Essentially grinding is just repeating the same action over and over. Grinding is what keeps people paying their monthly subscription fees. In a MMO your grind isn't done simply because you are max level, unless of course, you're done playing.

Grinding is more than levelling, for example levelling? Uh... however, any dedicated gamer detests monotonous grinding. If the grinding wouldn't be monotonous, there's nothing wrong with it, but as soon as it is (and it is like that in 99% of all MMORPGs) the quality of the gameplay while grinding drops down to a minimum. There are people who asks themselves why they are doing all this, since grinding is the main thing they're doing in the game, but it sucks. And all that just for the illusion to have a great character? I'd sigh being bored at that point.

Its all fine and good to say 'I hope there's no grinding!' but it is what keeps people playing these games month after month. It serves a valid purpose. If there were to be no grinding whatsoever, the developers would have to continuously pop out fresh content on a WEEKLY basis, and thats nowhere near realistic.

Its a necessary evil.

Everyone wants this to be changed. Even Koreans do (the contrivancer of monotonous grinding), that's why NCSoft is trying to make a game that is less oldschool monotonous grind oriented, but has alot of interesting content and the grind isn't just doable in one repetitive way.

[Fair]

I'm skeptical about grinding being a barrier to noobs or kids. Griding takes no skill at all, just time, which usually is what kids have plenty of.
Anyway I don't mind the leveling up (actually it is nice seeing you character growing up). I just wouldn't want to go through this all over again the second and third time. I think it should be made much quicker for people who already reached level cap with 1 character and what to experience the game from differnt angles.

[Disrupter]

Originally Posted by Endrance

Grinding is more than levelling, for example levelling? Uh... however, any dedicated gamer detests monotonous grinding. If the grinding wouldn't be monotonous, there's nothing wrong with it, but as soon as it is (and it is like that in 99% of all MMORPGs) the quality of the gameplay while grinding drops down to a minimum. There are people who asks themselves why they are doing all this, since grinding is the main thing they're doing in the game, but it sucks. And all that just for the illusion to have a great character? I'd sigh being bored at that point.


Everyone wants this to be changed. Even Koreans do (the contrivancer of monotonous grinding), that's why NCSoft is trying to make a game that is less oldschool monotonous grind oriented, but has alot of interesting content and the grind isn't just doable in one repetitive way.

I used multiple examples of grind in addition to levelling.

I don't detest grinding at all. Are you saying Sea access before the zone was populated with mobs in FFXI and clearing Naxx before TBC and Black Temple in October in WoW are not indications I am a 'dedicated gamer' ? You CAN'T make grinding less monotonous, because if it was less monotonous, it wouldn't BE a grind. What you can do is offer differing progression paths, which is something people should be raising their voices about, not pretending to hate a grind as MMO junkies.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Disrupter

I used multiple examples of grind in addition to levelling.

I don't detest grinding at all. Are you saying Sea access before the zone was populated with mobs in FFXI and clearing Naxx before TBC and Black Temple in October in WoW are not indications I am a 'dedicated gamer' ? You CAN'T make grinding less monotonous, because if it was less monotonous, it wouldn't BE a grind. What you can do is offer differing progression paths, which is something people should be raising their voices about, not pretending to hate a grind as MMO junkies.

People like you have been the reason why developers haven't tried to change grinding into something more enjoyable for many years. And are you trying to tell me that WoW grinding is comparable to FFXI grinding about the quality of the gameplay? See. It just needs to be made of even higher quality. And there has to be more than just one option to gather EXP. That's about it.

[Acyd]

WoW grinding is NOTHING compared to group gridning in FFXI.

[Katsuro]

Originally Posted by Mad Midget

I love to grind. When I think of a MMO, I think of grinding. An MMO that does not have grinding, does not interest me.

when i think grinding i think of it being partnered with bumping of some sort, and this....I like...

[Disrupter]

Originally Posted by Endrance

People like you have been the reason why developers haven't tried to change grinding into something more enjoyable for many years. And are you trying to tell me that WoW grinding is comparable to FFXI grinding about the quality of the gameplay? See. It just needs to be made of even higher quality. And there has to be more than just one option to gather EXP. That's about it.

I don't think I ever compared WoW and FFXI grinds in that statement other than the definition of grind. I was merely relaying a MMO resume to counter your ignorant blanket statement concerning 'dedicated gamers'. Those are the games I've played most recently, and played them very, very well.

Lets explore this a bit though. WoW actually attempted to kill the grind with unique quests as an alternate progression path while levelling, giving a proprotionate amount of experience points for completion. This worked out great honestly, although once you've done them once it becomes a bit of a (you guessed it) grind! If you are asserting MMO developers have never attempted to address the issue of 'grind' while levelling you are mistaken. Yet it always resurfaces.

Instead of saying there just needs to be an alternative, perhaps you could offer an example of one instead of making ridiculous 'People like you" statements.

[ei8th]

I actually enjoyed levelling (=grinding) in Lineage 2. With all the potions and newbie buffs it's a lot less downtime than it used to be. Overall, when I come home, done from work, I enjoy just mindelessly killing mobs while watching Star Trek Voyager or something like that on my 2nd screen, cause you can completely switch off. Reading quest texts or stuff like that is only half as relaxing.

However, I don't want Aion to be a grinder. I know they said you'll have the option to either grind or quest and will level similarly, but I have planned to use more brain for Aion than for L2

@Grind in general: Obviously it will always resurface. Unique content = expensive, repetitive content = cheap. It's as simple as that.

[Katsuro]

Originally Posted by Disrupter

I don't think I ever compared WoW and FFXI grinds in that statement other than the definition of grind. I was merely relaying a MMO resume to counter your ignorant blanket statement concerning 'dedicated gamers'. Those are the games I've played most recently, and played them very, very well.

Lets explore this a bit though. WoW actually attempted to kill the grind with unique quests as an alternate progression path while levelling, giving a proprotionate amount of experience points for completion. This worked out great honestly, although once you've done them once it becomes a bit of a (you guessed it) grind! If you are asserting MMO developers have never attempted to address the issue of 'grind' while levelling you are mistaken. Yet it always resurfaces.

Instead of saying there just needs to be an alternative, perhaps you could offer an example of one instead of making ridiculous 'People like you" statements.

You know, there IS game that has redefined the leveling situation for mmo's its not well known by any means however it has the basics of being something quite different, you don't level via monsters/quests, there were quests but they were primitive and had no leveling qualities to them at all, the game is by a company called Maeit, and its called GunZ, the graphics are crap and it was thrown out of alpha into beta then launched while still in beta, the main way to level is to kill hundreds of other players, and thats it, it gets intense and before you know it your leveling up to the 50's by just having fun, I think if games were to utilize bosses and pvpve more intelligently we would slowly see the deterioration of grinding altogether.

[Yakuzan]

I like grinding alone in places there is no one.

[businesscats]

Originally Posted by Acyd

WoW grinding is NOTHING

When I switched from L2 to WoW I kept thinking "This is so easy. What are these people complaining about." Then I hit lv60, and lv70 when it raised, and still thought "There is no grind." I guess it's nice being able to get a good laugh whenever someone says WoW is a grind fest.

Originally Posted by ei8th

Lineage 2. With all the potions and newbie buffs it's a lot less downtime than it used to be.

It's nice and all for new beginners to the game, but, personally, I think they overdid it. When they initially released the Newbie Guide it was alright - it only gave minor buffs for those leveling (lv8-30 I think?).

Two days ago I reactivated my L2 accounts and decided to try out a Kamael while selling things in Giran. All I have to say is WOW. Not only do new players get the minor buffs but they now get free teleports to hunting areas, free teleports back to town from those hunting areas, and skill trainers at the hunting areas (all of this on Kamael land, not sure if all starter areas are like this now). To me this is just ridiculous. Once these new players are too high for the Newbie Guide they're going to either quit or complain about "OH GOD THE GRIND" etc etc.

Those quick potions mobs drop are nice though

[Disrupter]

Originally Posted by Katsuro

You know, there IS game that has redefined the leveling situation for mmo's its not well known by any means however it has the basics of being something quite different, you don't level via monsters/quests, there were quests but they were primitive and had no leveling qualities to them at all, the game is by a company called Maeit, and its called GunZ, the graphics are crap and it was thrown out of alpha into beta then launched while still in beta, the main way to level is to kill hundreds of other players, and thats it, it gets intense and before you know it your leveling up to the 50's by just having fun, I think if games were to utilize bosses and pvpve more intelligently we would slowly see the deterioration of grinding altogether.

Interesting. I'll have to check that out, I'd not heard of it.

From what you've said here, since I'm obviously not privvy to the underbelly mechanics of it, this would seem like a great alternate progression path for a MMO. To protect the 'sanctity' so to speak, at least for me, of PVE though it would be great to have two differing character levels. One for PVE activity and one for PVP. Gain PVP experience and levels defeating other players while still offering that seperate progression path for the PVE oriented players. Perhaps allow abilities gained from PVP grinding to be used in PVE situations as well as a sort of incentive to the hardcore player to pursue both?

I like this idea.

[Acyd]

And i loved in FFXI at level 70 to progress further, you had to beat Maat. Maat mimicked your class and you had to know your class for defeat em. Red Mage was the hardest to do, took me like 7 tries =(

[Disrupter]

Originally Posted by Acyd

And i loved in FFXI at level 70 to progress further, you had to beat Maat. Maat mimicked your class and you had to know your class for defeat em. Red Mage was the hardest to do, took me like 7 tries =(

Refarming testimonies for the lose.

I also really liked the level milestone system FFXI utilized, although some of the level 70 job quests were stupidly easy, there wasn't a whole lot of consistency.

I'm recently playing again thanks to WoW being dumbed down repeatedly for the last 3 years, and really looking forward to the 1 on 1 with Maat again. I did him on Summoner initially (I was "that guy" that knew alot of the Japanese players) and a couple other jobs for fun. Summoner's fight was very easy, though I'll be trying him on Ninja this time through.