If I ruled the world

[Icarus01]

Originally Posted by Garvan

@Icarus01 - they already have that. It's called the matrix, though the devs insist on running this dull game called reality, aka real life, which despite terrible reviews is the most played game in the world.

like WoW?.....

[Arcadic]

Well, first let me say welcome to Aionsource. Quite the nice first post.

Second of all, I like all of your ideas. Especially the player-interactive story. Maybe it's only because I imagined a huge army of undead and Asmodian characters with an old crazy-looking guy floating above the center and a huge army of (surprisingly) Asmodian and Elyos characters running/flying against the undead army. I like the idea of mass conflict. But either way, it would be a great addition to any MMO.

I don't like the idea of everyone on one server, though. Just because some people don't have computers good enough to handle that many people (especially in a big city) on screen at one time, so multiple servers is a good idea.

[Garvan]

Originally Posted by Arcadic

I don't like the idea of everyone on one server, though. Just because some people don't have computers good enough to handle that many people (especially in a big city) on screen at one time, so multiple servers is a good idea.

EVE online managed to handle it, though it's technical aspects might differ from that of Aion (game engine etc) and of course, EVE is set in outer space, so there's a lot of.... uhm space XD Doesn't leave much room for anything else, which helps keeping things smooth running, even in "rush-hour".

Even so, an alternative is the GW approach. That you can seamlessly swap from different districts (or whatever you wanna call them), without having to wait 2-3 days and pay the devs to move your character. Of course there will also be a auto system that reroute players to avoid certain districts becoming too crowded.

Originally Posted by Icarus01

like WoW?.....

Nope, did WoW seriously get any bad reviews that are worth mentioning?

@Fleiva - didn't see that idea coming. New, fresh and original. Not my bag though, but most interesting none-the-less

Originally Posted by Mr Mage

The default character creation system sounds like the Tabula Rasa class selection system to me.

As I understand it, it has been used in several games. The Witcher and one of the later Oblivion games have it as well from what I can tell. Oh and I didn't know that stuff about GW2. Sounds sweet

Originally Posted by Cynthe

You had some time to think about this methinks ^^

Too much, way too much...

Originally Posted by Cynthe

I like your idea of implementing a Fable like story to an MMO, where your side is based on your actions and decisions and not on your character's birth. In fact I'd like to see something a lot more sandbox then we've been seeing lately, but I'm almost ready to give up that dream as those games don't tend to survive.

Elaborate if you would. My own experience with SandBox games are GTA series and Fable, both worked like a charm and strickly speaking only flaw is that both eventually come to an end (cause their console games, not MMORPG)

The problem, as I can see it, is that many (if not all) MMORPG's are massive digital theme parks. They have various "rides" (quest string, grinding, gear, mount, instances etc), but after going through them for a few times, it gets kinda boring. The "been-there-done-that" feeling comes creeping, especially because you have to start all over again with a new character and do the same things, pretty much in the same order as last time.

With a sandbox approach, you start at the same place (hey, even this might be randomized somehow... multiple n00b towns or something, spreads players and avoid quest areas to be overcrowded) and just swing it. One of the big "turn-offs" with MMORPG is that they give you this illition that you can go anywhere, but looking at it in detail, it's pretty damn linear. A lvl 15 character has no business in a lvl 45+ area, so you need to climb the ranks.

There might be a serious weakness to the sandbox approach, but if so it has eluded me thus far.

Originally Posted by Cynthe

Classes could be thrown out the window, see Ryzom, loved how your could completely customize your skills, there was 3 trees I think, ranger, warrior and mage. And you could develop one or two of them or all 3 if you were crazy :P What defined you wasn't your class, no one could know what you could do just by looking at you. The crafting and harvesting was similar, you are not limited by what you can choose only on how much time you are willing to spend on each skill..

With a MMORPG you'll need some sort of limit to what you can do. In Fable you eventually ran out of quests and the game itself came to an end. A MMORPG strickly speaking doesn't end, so if there is no limit to what you can get in terms of skills, you'll eventually have these demi gods that have every skill and mastered every weapon in the game. Those few would be a disaster to PvP.

While there is no limit (that I know of) regarding what you can learn in EVE online, the limit is that training takes time, REAL time. You can collect every skill to your professions (except secondary, there are some that you can't get), though you can only wield 8 at the time. Even the good old class system has restrictions. You can't master all skill trees for your class; a little of all, or a lot in one are your options (which opens up for a truck-load of variations).

One limitation would be that you get access to all the skills and invest EXP in the skills you wish to use. Instead of a level cap, we have a EXP cap. After collecting... 500.000 EXP points, you don't get any more and it is up to you if you'll invest these in magic (sub catogries of elemental, healing, curses, summons... whatever) or meele or whatever. That way you can't master all skills, but all skills are open to you if you just invest EXP into them. If my memory serves me, this was used in the original Deus Ex game, which was great BTW.

[Cynthe]

Originally Posted by Garvan

The problem, as I can see it, is that many (if not all) MMORPG's are massive digital theme parks. They have various "rides" (quest string, grinding, gear, mount, instances etc), but after going through them for a few times, it gets kinda boring. The "been-there-done-that" feeling comes creeping, especially because you have to start all over again with a new character and do the same things, pretty much in the same order as last time.

With a sandbox approach, you start at the same place (hey, even this might be randomized somehow... multiple n00b towns or something, spreads players and avoid quest areas to be overcrowded) and just swing it. One of the big "turn-offs" with MMORPG is that they give you this illition that you can go anywhere, but looking at it in detail, it's pretty damn linear. A lvl 15 character has no business in a lvl 45+ area, so you need to climb the ranks.

There might be a serious weakness to the sandbox approach, but if so it has eluded me thus far.

With a MMORPG you'll need some sort of limit to what you can do. In Fable you eventually ran out of quests and the game itself came to an end. A MMORPG strickly speaking doesn't end, so if there is no limit to what you can get in terms of skills, you'll eventually have these demi gods that have every skill and mastered every weapon in the game. Those few would be a disaster to PvP.

While there is no limit (that I know of) regarding what you can learn in EVE online, the limit is that training takes time, REAL time. You can collect every skill to your professions (except secondary, there are some that you can't get), though you can only wield 8 at the time. Even the good old class system has restrictions. You can't master all skill trees for your class; a little of all, or a lot in one are your options (which opens up for a truck-load of variations).

One limitation would be that you get access to all the skills and invest EXP in the skills you wish to use. Instead of a level cap, we have a EXP cap. After collecting... 500.000 EXP points, you don't get any more and it is up to you if you'll invest these in magic (sub catogries of elemental, healing, curses, summons... whatever) or meele or whatever. That way you can't master all skills, but all skills are open to you if you just invest EXP into them. If my memory serves me, this was used in the original Deus Ex game, which was great BTW.

The theme park approach it what sells though, you don't see sandbox MMOs because they fail, my one experience is with Ryzom, which had some great mob AI, they seemed like real creatures and on the mainland they didn't really have 'levels' they had colors. Green for easy, yellow for tougher, orange for even more challenge and red for run away and come back with a party ^^ They didn't live in one particular area but in clusters, eventually you'd figure where you could safely go and where you couldn't. Of course they did have high end areas with elite-like mobs in a place called the Roots. That's where you'd go for FFA PvP, the best of the best harvesting materials for high end crafting and those big bad bugs to kill.

There were no quests that advanced the story line, you would have to make up your own story, it as an RP haven in that respect. The major story or theme was progressed through GM events and you could read the planet's history and time line on the website to really get everything lore wise. So no cutscenes no major raids or dungeons unless you grabbed a party and deliberately went into danger, no massive lewt or god like gear. Because gear came from crafting and the community was awesome enough to sell at good and fair prices or give them to you for free in exchange for other services such as materials gathering, jewelery crafting, being a member of a guild, guild alliances ect.. I got a whole set of heavy armor once from a crafter that was not in my guild but was in a guild allianced with mine. Newbies more often then not get free weapons and armor because people don't feel possessive of their stuff, they can always make more.

Those are all things I'd like to see again, but so far that's not what sells, people don't want to make their own realm, they want to be guided all the way. Honestly I do too, but not all the time. A game that could merge the theme park but give us more freedom in other ways would be perfect imo. Have the linear quests with the stories, but remove the linear mobs and level 'areas' apart from the major ones, like the normal zones vs the Abyss in Aion, give the creatures better AI like they are actually living in the space they occupy. Get rid of classes, let us pick the skills we want, and EVE sounds a lot like Ryzom, there were no God like people there either because it takes too long to gain all the points you need to maximize all the skills. I bet you there wasn't anyone at max level or they were very rare, I think the max was 250 levels, and it's not one 250 level, it's 250 for range, magic and melee.... ^^ yeah...

Anyway I have to go now!! *sad* ^^

[Calindor]

To elaborate on the guiding stuff and the game I mentioned earlier, Earth and Beyond...It wasnt in a sense you make your own story, but it was a changing and evolving storyline based on what you did. An example would be (its a space MMORPG about 200 years or so in the future, there are 3 factions of humans...Traders all about money on Earth, Peace loving hippies about exploration on one of Jupiter's moons (Europa), and genetically engineerded warriors in a colony on Mars). For the first few months of the game there were no aliens, but then aliens started to appear in the outer regions of our galaxy, they started getting closer, and ofcourse the Warriors on mars started fighting them. They would move into a territory occupied by humans, and there would be a big raid with hundreds of players...if you lost the raid the GM's would update the region with more aliens as they were now in control of it since they won. Maybe a planet there, or a space station would now be destroyed...stuff along the lines of that. IMO it was the second most fun key aspect of any MMO I've seen. (Number 1 being open free for all pvp based on politics/drama in L2)

[LethalGT]

Wow, wall of text coming through.

Originally Posted by Icarus01

like WoW?.....

Kind of, but WoW has cartoony graphics.. that Real Life game just has horribly rendered stuff, and really the NPC's suck *** and they're really depressed.

[Garvan]

Originally Posted by Garvan

You can collect every skill to your professions (except secondary, there are some that you can't get), though you can only wield 8 at the time.

Whops, a little lack of info here. This doesn't concern EVE online, I'm talking about Guild Wars here.

Maybe I'm just a little on the dense side, but I still don't see problem with sandbox approach. You can still have a storyline and quests. GTA has a storyline that you follow through missions, while at the same time you can tackle them anyway you want, whenever you want (assuming you have unlocked it that is) and however you want.

The GTA3 dude never gets higher level, his stats never improve and what better equipment he gets access to is limited to new car models and weapons. My point is, as far as I can tell it can be done.

I'll admit that the biggest problem with sandbox is that you might get that felling "okay, what now?" after logging on for the first time. Got that feeling myself everytime I signed up on EVE. Sitting in a newbish ship somewhere in space and in front of me is litterary a galaxy of opertunities. You really get the feeling that "there can be no other destiny but our own" is really true.

While this sense of freedom is cool, it's also scary. You have no idea of what to do next, so a starter guide is much needed for some players. While EVE gives you tutorials that covers all the basics, you'll find yourself nuked with information and unable to get a overview straight of the bat.


Moving on; what is a good, solid cure for the curse of most MMORPG's - End Game Content?
The Matrix Online has PvP as end game content, plus a storyline that has been screwed up badly (from what I know), so many players are unhappy abput it.
WoW has, depending on server, PvP, instance and equipment gathering. Of course they threw in BC at the end, boosted level cap up by 10, but is that enough?
Guild Wars has... uhm... skill collection and PvP. Gears aren't all that hard to get, as you'll primaly need the goods to get them crafted in town. Granted, some goods are harder to get than others, but that's about it.
EVE Online has... honestly I have no idea, but I suspect PvP and the eternal quest for more skills to get better ships.

Is there anything else? Anyone up to the challenge to think outside the box? Aside from what has already been established as end game content in Aion, what would you like to see instead / in addition?

[Zanny]

I really love the class generation approach.

As you level, you specialize across a massive board of skills, and your stat points per level are yours to spend. As you level, abilities you use more (melee, casts, heals, buffs, summons) "level" as well, making skill-ups more frequent with techniques you use more, and that similar abilities become avaliable for moves you use alot (IE, you start lvl 1 with a ranged cast, the ability to melee things with a special attack, a health debuff, and then at like lvl 5 you get a weak hot heal, the ability to summon a weak elemental pet (of a single type).

If you use the weapon alot, you get at lvl 10 dual wielding and a whirlwind attack with a 2 hander, and can use a shield. You also get leather armor at lvl 15. And at lvl 30, using a 2h alot, you learn mail, and at 40 plate. If you dual wield, you obtain stealth at lvl 20, and never gain heavier armor. Here, you have a gladiator and an assassin. If you tank alot (as in instance alot while leveling) or grind as a tank with a healer and some dps, then you profess to a templar. This is a double edged sword - real tanks will become tanks, and tanking will not be a "leveling" spec.

If you use casts, your armor and physical abilities never improve but you gain new spells and such. If you summon alot, those get stronger, use debuffs / heals, you become a healer. You can start with an idea what you are aiming for but you can sample every playstyle and go what you want to.

[Garvan]

One of my best moments in WoW was when someone (dunno who, horde or alliance) pulled a lvl 60 elite dragon down to stormwind.

I was walking up from duskwood, coming up at goldshire and saw all of these dead people lying all over. Seriously, even the chickens were dead. I was all like... w00t!!?

Walking up to stormwind I caught the eye of something inbetween the trees, it was big and going wild. End of the line was that it fryed a lot of people in the trade quater in stormwind, even took a trip inside (or more like through the roof) of the AH there. Although I didn't take part in the fight, it was awesome to have something like that happening. A very refreshing break from the steady routine of WoW gameplay.

This was on a RP server BTW, so there were those that pulled some serious liners in the yell channel. Great fun. Wonder if I get to see something like that in Aion. It'll probably be even wilder XD