PvE high-end raiding. (wall of text)

[frag971]

FROM THE START I SAY: i know Aion is focused on PvP BUT it will have PvE too. Most of threads are about pvp and id like to talk about PvE wich is what i like along side with pvp and its integration in pvp side of the game. I will here talk only about PvE.

TLDR: soz cant realy tldr this :\

I come from WoW and played it for a long time (since MC/BWL days for those who know). Ofc this type of raiding is not yet fully developed and tested i'd like to point out some things regarding it. As i understand we will have a said large group of players, lets asume its 30. We will have these dungeon-type instances and open world bosses for us to raid. What id like to see is making that content realy epic in terms of doing it with a whole legion. Not something like "hey lets go to XXX for that nice axe and orb loot" but realy something that a player can distinguish himself from others by having that "rare sword that drops only from that boss" or having that full-set gear from a said instance so when players look at him they think "wow he has that awesome armor, i wish i had it too some day!".

Do not make the same mistake that Blizzard did on WoW raids by turning them from 40-man to 25-man. 40-man raids were realy fun, sometimes messy but it realy felt like the whole guild was working on it and its a nice way to socialise and interact with everyone. For those who had NO idea what and how fun it was take a look and watch this old video (pay attention to chat ): http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php it is about the last boss in Molten Core raid instance and my favorite boss of all times (<3 his voice)

So about raids...
For example we would have this starting raid instance that is quite easy and simple and will have it's specially designed gear set that drop from bosses or quests. Lets call it Hell Ramparts.

Then to access the next raiding dungeon is needed some effort of the whole legion with the concept of "Learn it, work it, gain it, show it" concept.

Learn it stage:
This would be the first stage that the legion will have to endure to be able to access the "real raiding content" of Aion.
Basicly this would be some sort of attunement process. After the guild has finished the first raid instance Hell Ramparts with a specific quest that is available after doing a small soloable chain quest to introduce the concept of raids and lore to it they can start working on the next tier of raid instances. This would be the "real raiding stufff". Lets asume there is only one instance called Hell Labirinth.

Work it stage:
Here is when your legion is raiding Hell Ramparts with a quest. There will be various objectives for the quest depending on class. This said quest will give you some sort of key so you are able to enter Hell Labirinth. Each class will have their own objectives like i said, for example Spiritmasters would need to gather the essences of monsters inside so they are able to imbue those essences into a magical rod that will be the key for it. Templars could gather insignias from bosses and melt them into their weapon or shield making it able to "pass thru the door". Each class will have their own way and that makes it fun and more unique.

Gain it stage:
This is when your legion is "PvE level 2" and all the legion members [that raid] got that said quest done so they can enter Hell Labirinth. The labirinth itself will be in the end of the Ramparts so its pretty much when you kill all the stuff inside Ramparts you can access the Labirinth. Inside Labirinth will be alot more chalanging. Classes will be needed to make use of their skills to be able to beat the monsters and bosses.

Do not make this a simple Tank&Spank fights. Make it so we need to move around or jumping into platforms or flying to specific spots. Simply make it a complex puzzle to keep us busy. One thing i dont like in WoW is that you need to farm alot for money, potions, elixirs, flasks and foods in order to raid nicely. I realy dont like that and wish we could simply go there and kill fun bosses with SKILL to solve puzzles and tactics and not with simple powerbuffs.

These bosses will drop some advanced and quallity loot, along with specific recipies for professions (hey wont it be cool that ur the only one on the realm that can make, say, [Archon Bow of Infinity]?), weapons and armors. Players will see you from afar and imediatly gauge your progression in the game and think twice before attacking you.

Show it stage:
Started already from the paragraph above . But yea that pretty much sums it up. It would be awesome when you and 2-3 more are the only players in the realm that have that realy-powerful armor that you've worked for. End bosses at each dungeon will drop some sort of badges that you can simply attach to your shoulders or tabard or cape so when someone sees you with those badges can instantly recognise you as a skilled player.

Also completting those dungeons will give you some bonuses in castles under your control. For example when you kill Gate Keep Salthuran (last boss in ramparts) your legion will gain aditional damage on fire damage from siege weapons [because your smiths that build those have access to something that the boss had] and there will be a crest at the gates sinalising that this legion has cleared ramparts so carefull or you might get crushed under defences :P

There also could be a tier 3 raid like "Hell Core" that needs a lvl 3 legion and its realy a hardcore dungeon for very skilled players and will held great rewards.

Uff finally... Any questions please ask ill answer. This is just an idea and not something to be realy implementing (tho id love to ) Thanks for reading this far.

[Ayanami]

The only part I'll really ask for is making raid bosses not tank and spank like I've been seeing in the videos. Where's the challenge?

Other than that, I don't really care.

[Calindor]

Aion is not an instance based game, its open world with PvP mixed in (as long as you're in the abyss). Number 2 I dont like when a specific item is dropped from only 1 raid boss in the game, that can lead to a halt on your progression until you get that specific boss done, especially if it is part of a set (Loot tokens are a different story). If RB's also drop some epic item that is the best of its kind, then it probably wont drop much of anything else, and that will lead to raids being done so 1 or 2 people can get a specific item, when really everybody who goes should benefit from killing the raid boss.

[frag971]

Originally Posted by Calindor

Aion is not an instance based game, its open world with PvP mixed in (as long as you're in the abyss). Number 2 I dont like when a specific item is dropped from only 1 raid boss in the game, that can lead to a halt on your progression until you get that specific boss done, especially if it is part of a set (Loot tokens are a different story). If RB's also drop some epic item that is the best of its kind, then it probably wont drop much of anything else, and that will lead to raids being done so 1 or 2 people can get a specific item, when really everybody who goes should benefit from killing the raid boss.

Yes ofc, but making all those rare items available for everyone wont be good. WoW did this with "welfare epics" and now 50% of wow population runs wiht the same armor

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by frag971

Yes ofc, but making all those rare items available for everyone wont be good. WoW did this with "welfare epics" and now 50% of wow population runs wiht the same armor

Which still doesn't make the well-known "rare drop for 3 guys in the guild" a good compromise. It's nothing that should be kept as it's been like, since everyone is putting in the same effort, but just a few people get a reward. That's like being punished for helping someone. I understand that people want to be more special than others by doing something for it, but it shouldn't be like that. Not in any way.

[Ayanami]

Originally Posted by Endrance

Which still doesn't make the well-known "rare drop for 3 guys in the guild" a good compromise. It's nothing that should be kept as it's been like, since everyone is putting in the same effort, but just a few people get a reward. That's like being punished for helping someone.

or instead of focusing on immediate reward, know that you''ll have your turn eventually, and the guy that you helped get loot for will be helping you? it's what we call a guild, a group effort, a family. It's because of people that only look forward to MY loot, MY armor, MY help, makes guild fall apart.

[frag971]

You raid for fun or loot?

[Ayanami]

I raid for progression. If guild can progress without me ever getting a piece of loot, that's fine by me. However, progression and loot goes hand in hand.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Ayanami

or instead of focusing on immediate reward, know that you''ll have your turn eventually, and the guy that you helped get loot for will be helping you? it's what we call a guild, a group effort, a family. It's because of people that only look forward to MY loot, MY armor, MY help, makes guild fall apart.

The point is that the system sucks. There will have to be the people who are picked out for stupid reasons to be the first on getting their stuff and the unlucky people who are left behind.
Group efforts should be rewarded evenly. The guys in the far back are always at a disadvantage (and are eventually doomed to get nothing for several months at all), no matter how you look at it.

Originally Posted by frag971

You raid for fun or loot?

Obviously both.

[Ayanami]

It's up to your own guild to work out a system everyone can agree on. I'm most guild isn't going to just /random on something and leave it at that. Find out what kind of loot system before joining the guild, if you don't like it, don't join it's that simple if loot is that important to you. If it ends up that you can't find a guild with a system that you think is fair, then well, sorry, but tough ****.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Ayanami

It's up to your own guild to work out a system everyone can agree on. I'm most guild isn't going to just /random on something and leave it at that. Find out what kind of loot system before joining the guild, if you don't like it, don't join it's that simple if loot is that important to you. If it ends up that you can't find a guild with a system that you think is fair, then well, sorry, but tough ****.

That's my point. There is no possible way to work out a fair system concerning a broken one. I'm playing MMORPGs for more than ten years now and I've never come along a system where some people weren't doomed, just because of being unlucky.
If you have one, please tell me. But I seriously doubt you do.

[Jjay]

I'd like to see something like FFXI relics, it took an entire LS/guild to accomplish a relic, but at the same time, it cost a lot of gil, so it took alot on the players side also ( farming, crafting , etc.. for gil)

[frag971]

Originally Posted by Endrance

Obviously both.

same for me. Then legion could have access to loot by having some sort of "pve points" like the pvp ones. once the legion has those all the members can buy the gear depending on their rank within the legion (recruits cant buy, normal members only armors and veterans can also buy weapons for example). This way the whole guild will work for it to allow access to niec armors and weapons so they can use it in PvP. Since this will be a PvPvE we can make it also as you can buy certain gear by having a castle of two as a requirement so not all guilds can simply farm points and get the gear. This will also encourage ppl to not create problems in the guild or they will get kicked/demoted and loosing the gear/title/rank. Also this eliminates ninjas

[Jjay]

Originally Posted by Endrance

The point is that the system sucks. There will have to be the people who are picked out for stupid reasons to be the first on getting their stuff and the unlucky people who are left behind.
Group efforts should be rewarded evenly. The guys in the far back are always at a disadvantage (and are eventually doomed to get nothing for several months at all), no matter how you look at it.


Obviously both.

You dont want everyone getting all the gear they want in a short time frame either, atleast i wouldn't.. that would lead to people getting bored and leaving.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Jjay

You dont want everyone getting all the gear they want in a short time frame either, atleast i wouldn't.. that would lead to people getting bored and leaving.

I'm not stupid. Of course I've been calculating that fact in. Although I'm certain that both sides make a bad compromise, that's why developers should be looking for another one.
The simplest thing they could do would be to just connect some quests to raids, which require you to kill raid bosses many times and give you an character binding item you need to "unseal" the boss monsters drop (as long as it's sealed, you can't equip it). Maybe you could make people able to use the equipment inside of specific raids though, so the group effort won't go to waste as long as you're raiding (although that could be a problem in Aion, where most Raids are possibly not instanced - maybe make people able to wear it as long as the boss is in a certain range/in sight range).
Then at least, everyone would feel like having accomplished something important. And it would mostly get rid of the main problem, since it wouldn't really matter anymore who gets their items first or last.

EDIT: I should get this into the next Suggestion Cycle.