The Effects of Stigma

[Dez]

I'm all for customization, in fact I want as much customization as possible in my games.. which is why I like MMO's and RPG's in general, there's a lot of options and personalization. There's a reason I use 1hour+ to make my characters. That said, the pole arm issue isn't only about that. It is good that you can make yourself stand out, and be different. However in this case that shouldn't go as far as changing the role of your class.

I certainly don't choose Assassin to use big weapons, if you do.. well I would say you're confused. Assassins were never about big 2handed weapons, they're about stealth, camou, fast weapons (and going by realism standards a 2handed weap isn't fast, I don't care if it's a fantasy game, this is about class lore and class roles.) Changing the class itself in customization isn't nice, that defeats the whole purpose of a class. It's a reason it's called a class, they got certain limitations, things they can and -can't- do. Assassins are supposed to wield cunning weapons and be swift, a pole arm makes you more like some brute gladiator, and it isn't swift either. Doesn't matter if using pole arm nerfs the assassin by a million times, assassins are not supposed to be able to use heavy weapons, -end-.

If they don't change this I'm surprised, at any rate I'll refrain from using pole arms or anything like that.

[Janis]

Originally Posted by Valerossi0

The main problem about an assassin with an polearm seems to be why choose an gladiator than ?.

If i see what skills and rogue got how fast they attack and what damage they make with pole and even can charge, i dont see an reason for me anymore to take an gladiator.
I thought to be special as gladiator in heavy gear fighting with an polearm, but if assassins that meant to be fast fighters can do the same heavy with poles , than please explain me some more reasons to go gladiator.

EDIT: I don't usually get so invested in a conversation and I was thinking about why I have now. I realize that my ego is to blame. I finally had made up my mind about being an assassin instead of a ranger when I saw assassins could use polearms. My ego perceives people who think that assassins shouldn't use polearms as a threat becuase i'm well aware of the fact that enough people complain the dev's might change it that assassins can't use polearms, therefore my posts are rather overly-defensive. I apologize, i mean no offense.

Good point, but I think that being a gladiator you could pick assassin skills if you wanted or ranger or class"x".

Well the reason you would go as gladiator would be to use SWORDS/POLEARMS/HEAVYARMOR/TANKING/LOOKS/SKILLS. Also wouldn't you rather use the weapon that has better stats rather than using an out dated polearm? Besides the attack animations and skills are different, don't tell me the only reason you chose to play a gladiator was for charge and polearm, that is just silly in my opinion.

In terms of daggers/swords being useless over polearms, that is a legitimate worry. It really depends on what the polearm stigma replaces. If it replaces a huge dagger damage boost or crowd control ability then I think it is fine. If the polearm gives a huge benefit based on how the skill calculations are made then I agree it is not balanced. I understand the concern that if the damage range increases with the polearm and most attacks are instant then the damage boost would be substantial. But we do not know the cost of the damage boost.

Anyway I think its too early for us to judge, everyone is jumping to conclusions. At least I know I was initially very amazed at seeing a polearm assassin, but then I stepped back and thought about it. If it turns out to be a bug then we need not worry about it, if it is not a bug then by the time the game reaches us it will be balanced, and we need not worry about it. So in the end we need not worry about it.

@aggalos Gladiators aren't meant to do as much damage as assassins in the first place. That's why they get extra armor and extra health. It's not like gladiators are assassins with plate armor, that would truly be unbalanced. Again not you nor I understand the true scope of the cost vs benefit of using a stigma to get a polearm.

@Dez I don't think that the weapon a class uses changes the class role in any form whatsoever. Maybe if I saw an assassin tanking, healing, or casting magic spells then I would agree. The assassin still has the same skills that any other assassin's have. Again the argument here is: I don't believe that a stealthy class can stealth with a huge weapon because how do you hide in real life with a huge heavy thing on your back? Basically a polearm assassin is not compatible with how I think a game should represent the assassin archetype. Correct me if I misunderstand your point.

Personally I think flying shouldn't be in the game. It's not right and realistic that we can just pop wings out of our backs. I don't want to play a game that differs so much from what I think a game should be, is again the consistent argument that i'm reading. If people don't want to play a game that tries to add something "new" then they should go play a old game and be comfortable with old ideas.

This thread is like a broken record: The same invalid points are brought up over and over again. I'm not a friend of ignorance though I am a friend of truth. We shouldn't be discussing this issue because none of us know the truth behind it, we can only speculate.

[Haubix]

Originally Posted by Dez

I'm all for customization, in fact I want as much customization as possible in my games.. [...]

Doesn't matter if using pole arm nerfs the assassin by a million times, assassins are not supposed to be able to use heavy weapons, -end-.

That contradicts.

[Gatz]

Blasphemy, an assassin doing more dmg than a gladiator using a 2 handed weapon. What is then the point of gladiators?

[Haubix]

Originally Posted by Gatz

Blasphemy, an assassin doing more dmg than a gladiator using a 2 handed weapon. What is then the point of gladiators?

Gladiators are still needed. They wear plate armor. Well... thinking about stigma: Assassin with polearm and plate armor -> Gladiators are really not needed anymore

[Dez]

Originally Posted by Haubix

That contradicts.

No it doesn't. I'm all for customization, as long as it doesn't go as far as in this case, making a assassin more like a brute force class.

Originally Posted by Janis

@Dez I don't think that the weapon a class uses changes the class role in any form whatsoever. Maybe if I saw an assassin tanking, healing, or casting magic spells then I would agree. The assassin still has the same skills that any other assassin's have. Again the argument here is: I don't believe that a stealthy class can stealth with a huge weapon because how do you hide in real life with a huge heavy thing on your back? Basically a polearm assassin is not compatible with how I think a game should represent the assassin archetype. Correct me if I misunderstand your point.

This thread is like a broken record: The same invalid points are brought up over and over again. I'm not a friend of ignorance though I am a friend of truth. We shouldn't be discussing this issue because none of us know the truth behind it, we can only speculate.

The same point are brought up because someone seems to ignore them, or just not get the idea, and they need to be brought up. It's not about how I think a game should represent the Assassin, it's how the Assassin have always been represented. Each class have certain standards, they always have had. 2Handed weapons isn't one of them. It doesn't feel very assa-like to carry a huge weapon around, that makes you feel more brute you can't deny that. It's just plain stupid, goes against all logic. Let's not start twisting classes, in the end you can't tell one class from the other because they can all do the same thing and use the same equipment. 2Handers for Assa is already a huge leap, let's say this trend continues in other games, in the end we'll have a warrior assassin.

[Aggelos]

Originally Posted by Janis

Gladiators aren't meant to do as much damage as assassins in the first place. That's why they get extra armor and extra health. It's not like gladiators are assassins with plate armor, that would truly be unbalanced. Again not you nor I understand the true scope of the cost vs benefit of using a stigma to get a polearm.

True, but how you explain an Assassin showing more proficiency in a weapon a Gladiator master by default? Assassins are about getting in your back and do a 1-hit massive damage and lots of fast hits and criticals. So they are meant to sneak into enemy lines and surprise and enemy and kill him as fast as he can and then sneak out. Gladiators are about brute force, never hiding, using their bodies to get into enemy lines and use AoE massive skills and knocking back and hitting hard but slow.


You can't say it's correct for an Assassin to have a weapon that hits harder than a dagger, and hits equally faster and with equal chances to get a crit.

Again, my point is... there will be no choice... why would you use a dagger if it doesn't hit as hard as a pole? then... why make assassins use daggers if everyone will use polearms cause they hit harder? Why would you make a gladiator for melee damage if another class does it for twice as you and can teleport and hide, etc?


Too many advantages that leave the people playing this game seriously without a choice.


I would be ok if there is a pro v/s con on each weapon. Something like:

-Polearm: +p.atk -atk. speed -accuracy
-Dagger: -p.atk +atk. speed +critical
-Staff: -p. atk -atk speed + accuracy + mana regen.


So it would actually be a choice... and you choose between an assassin hitting hard but slow or an assassin hitting not that hard but fast, to fit your playstyle. Not make one better than the other.


And we can clearly see that assassin hitting as fast as she would do with daggers and no missing and with much more patk... that's for sure... that's why we are complaining.

[Janis]

Originally Posted by Aggelos

True, but how you explain an Assassin showing more proficiency in a weapon a Gladiator master by default? Assassins are about getting in your back and do a 1-hit massive damage and lots of fast hits and criticals. So they are meant to sneak into enemy lines and surprise and enemy and kill him as fast as he can and then sneak out. Gladiators are about brute force, never hiding, using their bodies to get into enemy lines and use AoE massive skills and knocking back and hitting hard but slow.


You can't say it's correct for an Assassin to have a weapon that hits harder than a dagger, and hits equally faster and with equal chances to get a crit.

Again, my point is... there will be no choice... why would you use a dagger if it doesn't hit as hard as a pole? then... why make assassins use daggers if everyone will use polearms cause they hit harder? Why would you make a gladiator for melee damage if another class does it for twice as you and can teleport and hide, etc?


Too many advantages that leave the people playing this game seriously without a choice.


I would be ok if there is a pro v/s con on each weapon. Something like:

-Polearm: +p.atk -atk. speed -accuracy
-Dagger: -p.atk +atk. speed +critical
-Staff: -p. atk -atk speed + accuracy + mana regen.


So it would actually be a choice... and you choose between an assassin hitting hard but slow or an assassin hitting not that hard but fast, to fit your playstyle. Not make one better than the other.


And we can clearly see that assassin hitting as fast as she would do with daggers and no missing and with much more patk... that's for sure... that's why we are complaining.

I agree with you completely, at this time it would appear that polearms outshine daggers in all aspects. If that is the case, then it is a pertinent argument and needs to be looked into. Your system is a good idea to reduce the assassins proficiency in a weapon that the class does not use without stigma.

My argument is that I don't believe that people would have the same problem if swords would be doing the equivalent damage of polearms. Thus, besides the increased damage I feel that people are upset due to the weapon itself. Which in my mind is not a logical argument. The argument in this case would be that people don't feel right with playing a game which has assassins using 2H weapons.

We are most likely arguing in favor of the same things, but don't write clear enough details for each other to understand that, that is the case.

@DEZ Please provide the documentation which clearly states that assassins in all games must be the same. Unless you can muster up the documentation it would appear to me that your argument is solely based on your opinion. If your argument is opinion based I can only retort with quoting yourself.

The same point are brought up because someone seems to ignore them, or just not get the idea

Your second point about crossing archetype boundaries is a better argument. Though you don't word your arguments very well. I have yet to see an assassin casting spells as their primary damage means. Or an assassin tanking instead of the gladiator in the group. You yourself said

let's say this trend continues in other games, in the end we'll have a warrior assassin.

This statement embodies the fear you have and the inherent flaw of your argument.

Assassins being able to wear heavy plate and use two handed weapons is a new idea, ignorance is not an acceptable basis for an argument. I feel like a broken record trying to prove a point to someone who is unwilling to listen to logic nor reason.

No it doesn't. I'm all for customization, as long as it doesn't go as far as in this case, making a assassin more like a brute force class.

You should add more depth into your argument so that people would understand what you mean by what you say. I'm not the only person having a hard time understanding your arguments. They may be valid if you properly explained them, but it's hard to guess what you are thinking.

@Gatz That is an opinion with no explanation. Please provide why you think that gladiators become obsolete.

I'm going to try to interpret by what you "meant".

Your argument would be true if a couple of variables happened to fall into place.
The assassin would have to use 2 stigmas to get 2H weapon and Full Plate Armor
1. Wearing full plate makes the assassin have equal damage mitigation to the gladiator
2. The cost of using the 2 stigmas to use 2H and Armor is negligible(I.E. all other stigmas are useless)
3. Gladiators are meant to do equal damage as assassins while wearing better armor and having more health
4. Gladiator talents/feats/skills are exactly the same as an assassins
5. The developers made a mistake by not taking into account the damage "numbers" that could be exploited by using the stigma system

[Dez]

Why can't we just stick with the normal Assassin weapons, I don't even know where they got the idea of using pole arms from. What's next, spell books. You can still do a lot of things with stigma to personalize your class, doesn't need to be overkill. A class known for speed using a slow weapon is just that, overkill. It's a fantasy game indeed, but does that mean we abandon all logic?

Casters are fragile, just like Assassins don't use big/slow weapons, because they're supposed to be light weight for swiftness, stealth and camouflage. Who am I to say how a Assassin should be in Aion? Oh sorry I just thought that when you roll a class there's certain standards, if there wasn't we wouldn't know what choosing that specific class was about. If they wanted something different they should have created classes unique to Aion, not twist and turn on already familiar classes. When I choose Assassin it's cause I like what they're all about, now if you change that you're ruining the class which I know and love. Sure I can refrain from ever using a pole arm, but I'll see others like me swinging big phat pole arms around, that's just not the Assassin. Don't try to change lore that where there since the beginning of RPG's. Please.

[Janis]

Originally Posted by Dez

Janis, you're hopeless. If you can't comprehend something so simple I feel sorry for you. I won't bother to try and explain it once more, you're making it a lot more complicated then it really is. Seems like you're a guy who likes to argue for the sake of it.

Why can't we just stick with the normal Assassin weapons, I don't even know where they got the idea of using pole arms from. What's next, spell books. You can still do a lot of things with stigma to personalize your class, doesn't need to be overkill. A class known for speed using a slow weapon is just that, overkill. It's a fantasy game indeed, but does that mean we abandon all logic?

Casters are fragile, just like Assassins don't use big/slow weapons, because they're supposed to be light weight for swiftness, stealth and camouflage. Is that really hard for you to understand Janis?

I understand now, thank you for explaining your argument properly.

EDIT: I understood your point from the start, I wanted to avoid any flaming but you keep insulting my intelligence. Refer to my post bellow.

[omidus]

I dont understand how none of the assassin moves has no cooldowns on them, it seems he/she constantly had all her moves useable.

[Kazi]

I would like to high-jack this for a moment.

IMO we should get teleport with stigma^^

End, go back to the debate of how we will be the first to be nerfed.

[XemnasXD]