Best GPU setup. (for me)

[Calindor]

I was asking on anandtech aswell, but want to post here. What do you think the best mid-range setup is right now. I'm wondering what to get to optimize for Aion..I'm shooting for 30fps in mass pvp while using fraps.

I'll also be using a 22" LCD at 1680x1050 resolution, and will never be able to go higher.
I'm thinking 4850 CF because if you look at these, its pretty much on par with 4870CF and GTX280SLI, slightly off, but a lot more cost efficient.
If you look at these:

Eye Candy on:



^^^is the only one I can find with a discernible difference, yet 4850CF is on par with the GTX280 SLI.
Keep in mind I'm only interested in the 1680x1050 resolution...as I would assume most people are, because a monitor with a higher res comes at a ridiculous price....but it appears the other cards dont really pull any further away from 4850CF even in the higher resolutions.

You will see that theres hardly any difference in FPS between 4870 CF or 4850CF. Not to mention its beating GTX280SLI for only $200 a card. Its also probably the biggest % bonus in FPS from adding a second card. CFing a 4870 doesnt yield as big of a FPS increase...not to mention you could buy a third 4850 with the money you have leftover from 4870 CF.

Another important/amazing thing is the power consumption is almost the same as a single 4870 under load, and less than a GTX280...Another bargain feature...SLIing or CFing high end cards requires insane PSU's, but 4850CF is the same as a single card...This is important because the extra wattage you need for CF/SLI on those other cards will require a much more expensive PSU, and combine that with the price difference between the card for the small performance gains you see up above...Remember the price of 2x4850's is only $400, and look what you're getting out of it.


People say buy a 4870 now, and another one later if you want the upgrade. Well two 4870's arent that much better than 2 4850's which are 2/3 the price...I think a single 4850, and 4850 CF is the best bang for your buck out there, and an underrated setup...Of course heat is a problem, but that isnt a hard fix, especially with a good case.



On anandtech a few of them think a single 4850 or 4870 will do what I want no problem, but I'm not sold yet, unless I see some actual in game footage. They also think ram and CPU is more of a factor in things like mass PvP. It definitely is a huge factor, but I'm not sure if it is as much as GPU. They recommend a quad core, but I'm not sure how much would a quad core increase performance compared to say the $100 you would spend on 4850CF over a 4870 or GTX260?. I'll already be using 4gb, no reason to go higher, but I think the bare minimum you should play a newer MMO (Aion, WAR, AoC) on is 2 gigs, unless you are using low settings. Also, I dont know how much of a gain you would get from a 10krpm HD. (I wish someone would do tests and benchmarks for MMO's as they are so different compared to shooters).

I know all about the horrors of mass PvP(or PvE). Loading Orgrimmar in WoW was nothing like loading a siege in L2...the worst is the Tower of Insolence. A 14 floor tower that takes like a half hour to walk up, its so high that you cant see the ground from the top..you probably couldnt see the ground half way up. It probably causes memory leaks trying to load things around the tower, and probably loads every single floor underneath you..As I've been in PvP's with a total of like 60 people there getting 5-10 FPS...and in other areas can PvP with twice or 3 times that and get better FPS. Its also not so much the loading of the players aswell as their movements and skill animations, and Aion has fancy ones, and its all skill based. Also in TR i've heard mention of a 4870 dropping from 90 to 30 FPS in a Command Point (basically mass PvE against scripted mobs).

[Draca]

I agree 2 x 4850 in CF is the fastest for the costs, very close to the 2 x 9800GTX sli if you have a sli mobo.

[DarkDewer]

4870 x2 is easily the best bang for buck, il be purchasing mine later when they are cheaper.

I have a crossfire mb, so im gonna buy one of these in a few months and then buy another one a few months later.

Ati is best bang for buck easily atm.Especially if you have a crossfire mb.The fps in those games will probably impove a lot more in the next few weeks because of new drivers anyway, making the difference even bigger.

[Howling]

As you mentioned, mass pvp is mostly CPU restricted. The Tabula Rasa CP raid dropping to 30fps is due to the cpu, not the gpu. Mine drops from 80ish to 20ish in HUGE raids on an 8800GTS 1680x1050 max settings, though that has lowered a fair bit since they changed the AA, with full AA I get about 60fps and drop to 15-18 in big raids. The drop is mostly caused by the CPU, mines a Q6600 @ 3.2GHz... if TR utilized multi-threading it wouldn't be a problem - but as with all games at the minute higher clock speed > more cores.
The HDD thing is all about cutting load times, it won't "boost fps" per se - it'll just cut loading time, ie if you're in an area and player x comes into view, your fps will spike down due to the delay in finding the textures etc needed to form the new player.. Now in big towns multiply this spike by several hundred different players and you find that your fps spikes very low for quite a long time.. but once you have all the players fully in view and they're loaded your fps will return back to normal.

imho the best card out at the minute is the 4870 due to it's cheapness and performance, that's my recommendation to you. Though the 4850 would be ample for Aion, it'll be the CPU and HDD giving you frame rate issues above anything else.

Edit: Oh and I don't recommend CF or SLi ever to be honest. Buying a more powerful single card will always get my vote, if nothing else than to remove any potential CF/SLi compatibility issues - which there are quite alot of.

[Draca]

is it 2x 4870 in cf or the 4870x2? both of this setups are in a other prize class then 2x 4850 CF.

[Calindor]

Originally Posted by DarkDewer

4870 x2 is easily the best bang for buck, il be purchasing mine later when they are cheaper.

I have a crossfire mb, so im gonna buy one of these in a few months and then buy another one a few months later.

Ati is best bang for buck easily atm.Especially if you have a crossfire mb.The fps in those games will probably impove a lot more in the next few weeks because of new drivers anyway, making the difference even bigger.

4870x2 is hardly more than a few FPS over 4850CF, costs $150 more, and requires atleast a $50 more expensive PSU.

How big is the effects on a CPU though, for example to compare E8400, Q6600/6700 and Q9400/9450?

[DarkDewer]

Originally Posted by Calindor

4870x2 is hardly more than a few FPS over 4850CF, costs $150 more, and requires atleast a $50 more expensive PSU.

How big is the effects on a CPU though, for example to compare E8400, Q6600/6700 and Q9400/9450?

I was comparing it with the top Nvidia card but whatever.

Originally Posted by Howling

As you mentioned, mass pvp is mostly CPU restricted. The Tabula Rasa CP raid dropping to 30fps is due to the cpu, not the gpu. Mine drops from 80ish to 20ish in HUGE raids on an 8800GTS 1680x1050 max settings, though that has lowered a fair bit since they changed the AA, with full AA I get about 60fps and drop to 15-18 in big raids. The drop is mostly caused by the CPU, mines a Q6600 @ 3.2GHz... if TR utilized multi-threading it wouldn't be a problem - but as with all games at the minute higher clock speed > more cores.
The HDD thing is all about cutting load times, it won't "boost fps" per se - it'll just cut loading time, ie if you're in an area and player x comes into view, your fps will spike down due to the delay in finding the textures etc needed to form the new player.. Now in big towns multiply this spike by several hundred different players and you find that your fps spikes very low for quite a long time.. but once you have all the players fully in view and they're loaded your fps will return back to normal.

imho the best card out at the minute is the 4870 due to it's cheapness and performance, that's my recommendation to you. Though the 4850 would be ample for Aion, it'll be the CPU and HDD giving you frame rate issues above anything else.

Edit: Oh and I don't recommend CF or SLi ever to be honest. Buying a more powerful single card will always get my vote, if nothing else than to remove any potential CF/SLi compatibility issues - which there are quite alot of.

I dont know loads about computers but I am 99% sure that more cores(4)>higher clock speed(2 cores) for games that support 4 cores.Unless the clock speed is A LOT more.

[Calindor]

games dont utilize 4 cores yet, and probably wont to 2-3 years, because its only a new technology, and games have a fairly long development cycle....The bonus right now is like 10% at best...kind of like the bonus from quad channel ram. Its not worth it *for gaming*, its only worth if if you use heavy duty software video/pic editing programs, and do heavy multitasking. But dual cores arent really being made anymore. the E8400 is amazing and will outperform in gaming any ~$200 quad. But, mmo's run differently, The stress loading of all the players in a mass pvp is more towards the ram, cpu and HD...I just want to know how big the effects are. Someone told me recording fraps on a seperate hard drive will eliminiate the FPS drop from that. But for example Would a Q6700 outperform an E8400 in a mass pvp (or equivalent on another game), is the difference negligible? How much improvement would you see with a Q9400/9450? Would it be more wise to keep the E8400 and go for a Raptor? I hear so much good things about raptors and how they are the best improvement you can get, but I dont know exactly how much it would improve.

TBH 40, 50, 60, 100 fps...it doesnt matter to me...Your eyes can only read so fast...What matters to me is minimum fps. Do you think a 4870 or 4850CF with E8400 would suffice for Aion? Are those spikes related to your original FPS. For example if you are playing a 4870 at 80 FPS and someone else is playing an GTX260 at 60 fps (just for comparison). If they are loading the same thing and its a siege, if both computers have the same HD, ram CPU, mobo, etc...will they both drop to the same thing? Or will the one with the higher original fps stay above?

[Ariel]

Im getting single 4870...
To me it seems like 1 4870 will cut through Aion @ 1680 x 1050 even at higher AA.

[phadyd]

Yeah I agree with howling in the fact that a single card is better then dual or even triple cards, you get at most a 10% increase in proformance and you can only use one monitor. I dont know about you guys but I like to watch a movie, raid, and surf the net at the same time, sometimes ill play CS while a boss fight is being explained. Anyways, I have always been happy with Nvidia, but there are certain vendors I would never use. Get the best single GPU you can afford and get a CPU that is Quad core that is easly overclockable, I recomend a Q9450 which is very cheap and easy to OC to 3.4GHz. Also make sure you have a MotherBoard that has overclocking technology Nvidia is one of the frontrunners in this new trend. As to your HDD and its RPMs faster is better but also you could by 4 cheap 80g drives and raid them and probly have more speed and space then getting 1 WD 74g raptor and spend the same amount of money. ~ phadyd

[Calindor]

Well if you look at those benchmarks...the 4850 CF is getting like a 45-70% increase over a single 4870 or GTX280..let alone the increase over a single 4850 which is probably ~100%. I think the whole "cf and sli is a bad idea/problematic" is more from a year or two ago...it seems to be the way of the future, and keeps getting better.

I just cant justify getting a 4870 when for $100 more you can get 4850 CF, which is on par with 4870CF, which costs $200 more + a beefy PSU you would need for only a 3-5 FPS increase over 4850CF. 9800GTX SLI is an option as they are the same price, it comes down to whether NVIDIA or ATI cards run better on Aion.

Yes Q9450 is a great processor, but I wont be playing 2 games at the same time. Watching movies was never a chore for a dual core. The most I do is render pvp and guitar movies on vegas, but when doing that I dont play games, I'll watch a movie or just go afk...So, is the bonus you would get from a Q9450 in a MMO really worth it over an E8400 (which is like 60% the cheaper), which I could easily OC to 3.6ghz?

7200 rpm hard drives are still limited significantly by their minimum load times compared to a 10k raptor. A raid 0 setup on 7200 rpm will still be slower than 1 raptor + a storage hd...and raptors in raid will ofc be the best.





And yes a 4870 or certain spec might be able to walk all over Aion at 60fps or something...but mass pvp. L2 can drop by 80%...Tabula Rasa can drop from 90 to 30 fps..etc. It might be hard to imagine if you've never done something like it...loading a town of afk people is nowhere near loading a large group of characters all moving around and using animations.

[Caedes]

Crossfire/SLI is something that looks nice on the paper but works horrible at the real situation. I agree with Howling you should get 1 powerful GPU and stand with it. We all know the bad situation in Masspvp and i don't think any CF/SLI will help you out. I tested SLI one time, with 2x 8800 GT and i took 1 out after 3 hours because the drivers weren't really good at that time :S.

Btw since we talk about FPS as soon you drop down to around <30 fps you will see microlaggs when you use SLI/CF (also on the dual gpu cards) thats the worst part on this technology.

[Howling]

Well I believe I've already explained the benefits of a quicker hdd, the reason for severe FPS dropping in raids, and also my recommendation for graphics for you. It's your choice to not listen though

I have completely ignored those benchmarks you posted btw as they mean absolutely nothing. Sure showing "fps" is all well and good, is it showing average? max? min? framerate at a specific frame? Minimum fps and average are the values you really need to consider (maximum too, but less so), they're the important ones.. And I guarantee you that a single 4870 will offer you the better visual experience than 4850CF, not to mention will drain less power than any CF or SLi configuration (there are some people who care about that)

[phadyd]

I think CF and SLI is a way to make you spend more money, we know they can put 2 GPUS on one card but they dont, the only reason they do SLI/CF is for money. What they should be doing is making better slots that have faster info xfer, I believe this is whats next upgrading MOBO slots so we can put more on a single slot and not get latency, or w/e. The nvidia 7950 had 2 GPU'son one card. ~ phadyd

****: I still dontthink you get that much improvement, also I dont think you will be seeing that much depending on your unique setup.

I will say this one more time, CF and SLI do not allow you to use 2 monitors at the same time, you would have to disable SLI/CF to be able to use more then one. This means alot to me. ~ phadyd.

****: Also I have quad boxed wow on my current machine which has a 8800GTX, 6801 sli board, 4g corsair ram, 74g WD raptors x2, E6600. I still get 55 FPS and drop to about 30 when in under load. This is with stock UI no addons. running only a single application on WOW i get 245 FPS and it never drops bellow 200 that i have seen. With my addons turned on I get solid 85 FPS. I think it should work fine for Aion, if it doesnt I will get a quad core, raid my HDD's, and buy a GTX 280.

[Draca]

Nvidia's new driver update should solve the dual monitor problem. They also add openGL 3.0 in the driver and alot of other stuff.

But if you are realy out for CF/sli then 2x 4850 is the way to go. But as Howling points out there is realy big problems then comes with dual videocards. As i said one day in IRC it's better to change single cards more often then to go with sli/cf. Saves both money and gives better preformance.