MMO's are becoming too generic.

[Verth]

Originally Posted by Ghorr

Hack and slash games like Diablo 3 are the future of gaming, mmorpgs will die.

uhhhhh, wha?? What have you been smoking??

[Marchosias]

(Big wall coming, I apologize. Not my biggest, though, so don't worry)

Well, to first address the topic at hand I would say that there are games that are trying to break the mold. Some others have mentioned CoH/V being very different from the traditional brand. Another one that's just different in Tabula Rasa. Unfortunately, I haven't really liked the different style either of these games has taken. I didn't think the combat in CoH/V was very engaging (my experience with it wasn't of reactive combat at all... what the other player was doing didn't affect what you should be doing in the least), and Tabula Rasa's world just didn't hit the right spot for me, so I never really had the interest to give it a fair play through. Overall I would argue that there are even mainstream games that are trying to be different, it's just that they might not have the best result in the end, at least not to your own (or my) personal tastes.

Originally Posted by Terpsichore

The worst part are the tries to make MMOs "casual", aka dumbing down everything to the point where you don't feel like archieving something.

This is something I've been hearing a lot from the "hardcore" crowd over the last few years. Even my friends in WoW complain that the game is "too casual" and how nothing seems like an achievement because "everyone can do it." I can't honestly tell you that this isn't true. If you fight your way through the idiocy of the general population in the game and find a group of smart players, pretty much all the content I've experienced is fairly easy to learn.

All that said, I don't think any PvE or PvP content should be reserved for those few people that are willing and able to through 5+ hours a day into a video game. Don't get me wrong, I actually am one of those people, at least until school starts back up this summer and I have to juggle that with work, gaming, and a meaningful social life. However, I don't think that your willingness to throw that much time into the game should automatically qualify you for an all-access pass that the "casual" players are refused. In any game, every player should be able to experience all the content of the game. They're paying the same subscription, they're paying the same up front cost for the game, so they're paying for access to the same content.

Now, the real, fundamental issue I have with quoted statement here, is that it's confusing "casual" players with "bad" players. It's assuming that because someone spends less time playing the game they're worse players and that the game needs to be dumbed down for them. Furthermore, it's saying that requiring you to spend a lot of time on something makes it feel like an achievement when you finish it. This might be true to an extent, but honestly I feel more like I've completed a chore at that point that achieved some great task.

So, the question then becomes, "How do we insert a task that isn't based on time, but on difficulty, that both casual and hardcore players can complete, while still ensuring that the hardcore players will have enough content to keep them coming back for years?" See, it's not about casual players being stupid and hardcore being awesome. I mean, look at WoW. I play that game and I see person after person running around in their full wellfare set (the term intelligent players have created for the PvP armor, which can be obtained by sitting AFK in battlegrounds for hours and hours... it takes some time to get, but you can spend that time afk watching movies and the like, so it's the definition of achievement based on time vs. achievement based on skill). The problem is that in an ideal situation, where a player's skill, and not their time played, determined what kind of tasks they could complete and rewards they could get, the hardcore players would run out of content relatively quickly.

I'm not going to claim I have the perfect answer to that question, how to make a game that's based on player skill rather than time played, where a smart casual player can complete anything task a smart hardcore player can (although a hardcore player would obviously be completing more of these tasks), but where there is still enough content to keep hardcore players coming for years. However, I do fully believe that if such a game was made, it would truly be one to break the mold of traditional MMORPGs, even if the combat system was more or less the same.

Originally Posted by Calindor

Look harder, because you obviously put next to no effort in.

I dunno. I've looked at Aion a lot, and while there seems to be a lot about it that's unique visually, I haven't seen a whole lot about it that tells me it's really going to be that different from traditional MMORPGs. Yes, there's the flight, but the combat looks fairly generic from everything I've seen, the questing seems fairly generic, I haven't seen much of the PvE raid content, but what I have seen hasn't suggested that it'll really be more than the "get lots of people to fight big monster" formula that WoW and so many other games use... I mean, the abyss is intriguing, but castle sieges are far from a new idea. Which brings it back to flight, but even WoW, the game everyone is so quick to point the "generic" finger at, is allegedly adding in-flight combat with its new expansion, which will probably release around the same time as Aion. That's not to say I don't think the game will be fun, I just don't think it's really breaking any molds.

[Calindor]

Its not really breaking any molds, but I dont think it is as strikingly similar to WoW as people make it out to be. First and foremost my interest in Aion is the Open World PvP, similar style to L2, except in a RvR manner, and just done better/upgraded. WoW is not about open PvP, it is about running instances, raiding and BG/Arena, you have to choose what you want to do. Raiding to me doesnt seem similar to WoW, there are open world bosses, you dont have to run an instance for hours to get to it, and they arent up for grabs anytime you want (ie: there is competition for the bosses, which is essential in a war/PvP based MMO). Then there is the mass PvP aspect, and done in a casual sense that you can group of anytime of the day, not to mention those Portal raids to enemy factions look fun as hell.

And about WoW I dunno..I mean approx 35 days ago a few ppl from my legion decided to play WoW again (me being one of them, but I gave it up around lvl 50 cause I couldnt stand the questing again)...2 of them already have s2 arena gear and it took them less than a month, not to mention they also have alts who are now almost lvl 70.

[Ghorr]

Originally Posted by Verth

uhhhhh, wha?? What have you been smoking??

Did I studder?

[Zanaionic]

i dont agree that MMOs will die.

new ones are being made very often. D3 will offer people a Freetoplay alternative but wont replace them in the long run.

[Verth]

Originally Posted by Ghorr

Did I studder?

Hack and Slash games are boring as hell, there are a lot of people that hate that game play style and will not play the game, so to say something as ignorant as hack and slash will kill MMO's with out any hard facts to back that up is well... lets just say it's not a very bright thing to say...

[Ghorr]

Well look at the facts, 95% of mmorpgs are ****ing boring, recycled garbage. So go suck you're thumb.

[Marchosias]

Originally Posted by Calindor

Its not really breaking any molds, but I dont think it is as strikingly similar to WoW as people make it out to be. First and foremost my interest in Aion is the Open World PvP, similar style to L2, except in a RvR manner, and just done better/upgraded. WoW is not about open PvP, it is about running instances, raiding and BG/Arena, you have to choose what you want to do. Raiding to me doesnt seem similar to WoW, there are open world bosses, you dont have to run an instance for hours to get to it, and they arent up for grabs anytime you want (ie: there is competition for the bosses, which is essential in a war/PvP based MMO). Then there is the mass PvP aspect, and done in a casual sense that you can group of anytime of the day, not to mention those Portal raids to enemy factions look fun as hell.

And about WoW I dunno..I mean approx 35 days ago a few ppl from my legion decided to play WoW again (me being one of them, but I gave it up around lvl 50 cause I couldnt stand the questing again)...2 of them already have s2 arena gear and it took them less than a month, not to mention they also have alts who are now almost lvl 70.

Don't get me wrong, those are exactly the same things that are drawing me to Aion. I mean, I absolutely detest PvP in WoW. Aion is certainly going to different from in a lot of ways, I was just trying to point out that it's not different from MMORPGs in general. Again, Aion is a game that's definitely intriguing to me for all the ways that it's not like WoW, I'm just still very skeptical towards it.

[Threnody]

Consider the possibility that the main problem is not the games themselves but the playerbase. Players consume content at a frightening quick pace and what is easy, casual and "carebear" to some is not the case for others.

The average MMO'er is looking for more and I'm not sure that enough developers have the manpower or funds to keep up.
Look at Shadowbane - phenomenal FFA game and they had FANTASTIC lore, fairly decent game mechanics...but there wasn't enough money in the dev company to keep up with the challenges of perpetuating that game.

For me, the generic aspect of recent MMOs is the elf (dark/light)/orc/Tolkien-esque races combined with redundant and pointless quests (my eyes bleed everytime i see a game with yet more kill 20 wolves and bring 30 pelts back quests)..

[KatzuyAion]

Originally Posted by Terpsichore

The worst part are the tries to make MMOs "casual", aka dumbing down everything to the point where you don't feel like archieving something.

And don't forget the F2P pest, pay to win suits the overall game sector.

I actually agree with you there !

[Jacarr]

To say that it's only MMORPGs that are feeling that would be inaccurate at best. Even console games are being dumbed down at an astounding rate, with no real purpose behind it. DMC3 and Ninja Gaiden 1/2 are the only current games that come to mind that had any kind of difficulty associated with them. At least until people whined DMC3 was too hard and they created an alternative easier mode.

Gaming is in a sad state these days. With the current degeneration of difficulty it'll get to the point where you might as well just throw in a movie because it'll be just as hard to beat those. Developers need to step up and actually create games again and not interactive movies to please the ADD crowds.

[Marchosias]

Originally Posted by Jacarr

To say that it's only MMORPGs that are feeling that would be inaccurate at best. Even console games are being dumbed down at an astounding rate, with no real purpose behind it. DMC3 and Ninja Gaiden 1/2 are the only current games that come to mind that had any kind of difficulty associated with them. At least until people whined DMC3 was too hard and they created an alternative easier mode.

Gaming is in a sad state these days. With the current degeneration of difficulty it'll get to the point where you might as well just throw in a movie because it'll be just as hard to beat those. Developers need to step up and actually create games again and not interactive movies to please the ADD crowds.

You forgot about Ninja Gaiden Black. It's like the original with the lunar staff and easier.

Honestly though, I don't understand all the hate towards games being "too easy" as long as there's a setting to ramp up the difficulty. If you want to have to be intelligent and/or die repeatedly to accomplish something, great. That setting should be there. If people want to kinda coast through, see the story, and feel like they can't die (because they'd have to be retarded to die on that easy a setting), let them play that. You both get the experience out of the game that you want, so where's the problem?

That said, that only applies to SP games. MP is a much different story...

[Fauconnoir]

A lot of truth in all your words.

MMO's interest is decreasing while they're all using the same gameplay. Each time a development studio find a good idea, each new MMO implements it. There's nothing but copying what has made interest for gamers. Sure you can find some new ideas in each new MMO, but there's no revolution, and finally, you have that impression of always playing the same game but with other graphics.

What is MMO style today ?
- different races to fight PvP
- different classes to play, but the same in all MMO's... a tanker, a damage dealer, a healer, a buffer, ... Nothing new ... You always play the same way
- skills that are quite the same in each games : a great ball of fire, a summon skill, a multiple shot, ...
- basic quests : quests NPC are identified, kill this, talk to him, protect him... Players don't read anymore why they have to do that. They just do that to gain xp. What's the interest ?
- PvP modes : 1v1, Arena, RvR, ... This is always the same goal and you can play that games with any other MMO...
- crafting : since crafting could be better used and developped, it is curiously the same everywhere. You collect ressources with random success. The more you collect, better you are at collecting... You can put this description in every MMO. They all use the same scheme.
- cooking : just drink or eat to gain health or mana...
- fighting. What to say ? You have to fight in every game. There's nothing to do than fight. Game designers always tell them that you can choose your way to play the game, fighting or crafting, or questing, or all that... That's not really true. Since MMO's goal is beginnning always better than other players, you always have to gain more and more xp to gain levels. And there's nothing but kill monsters to achieve this goal quickly and loot the best items.
- leveling-up. That's the only goal in MMOs... And that's why MMOs are so boring with time. It seems natural that the more you play, the more you achieve, upper you will be. But that's repelling for casual players. So you have quests to gain more xp more easily, but the content is quickly achieved, and there's no interest for hardcore gamers... Finally, the game has not a real personality, since it has to be enjoyed by each type.

It's even obvious that this is due to the number of players. Each person have this way to play a game. Each person have different amount of time to play a game. And while MMO is designed for each of them, it has to be "generic". The development of such a game costs a lot, and being too restricted is not profitable for editors. That's why MMO style can't level-up easily. The style had its success since it was new, but with time, gamers are becoming bored with that. It's like you've been playing the same game from 5 years !!!

I personally think that games should be more dedicated to a certain type of players : one for hardcore gamers, one for casual, one for those who like PvP, one for those who like fighting, one for thos who like roleplaying, etc... There would be less players on each game, but the interest would be better while designers could go farther in each gameplay.

[Calindor]

I really wish an idea of the first game I played took off. Earth and Beyond had 3 ways to level up...But you had to do all 3. Your Total level was 150, and each of those 3 ways of levelling went to 50. After you hit a total level of 150, you could keep levelling up and gain more skill points, but your level and hp stayed the same.

The 3 ways were, combat of course, exploration (finding new areas in the galaxy, taking a quest that was explore this anomoly from a space station, which could end up turning into a combat quest, also higher level players got a fairly decent amount of exp parting with lvl low level newbies that were getting exploration points from visiting places in the galaxy for the first time...so giving your new friend a tour of the galaxy was quite beneficial to both of you. Last was trading, everytime you buy or sell something, you get trading experience...which also let to the main profit source of the game...supply and demand. For example you dock on some space station in Jupiter, which has an abundance of a certain consumable, mineral, material etc...But in another part of the galaxy they have a huge shortage on that. So you fill your whole cargo hold up with that material, set on a long course, sell it all at the other place, and gain some profit and experience. (You can also go through a Wormhole from a certain class, but everytime you go through a wormhole your consumables decrease by 50%, to prevent people exploiting those trade runs.

I wish other games had done something similar.