Grinding

[Pancak3s]

Originally Posted by truemajeed

No offense, but 2-4 hours a day is a hell of a long way off casual. Casual is like 2-3 hrs a week...


WoW had Pathetic quest rewards...

Oh and it still took a while even with a lvling guide...

sorry but your definition of casual being 2-3 hours a week is completely off... thats not casual in mmo's thats called being barely active. No offense but it sounds like fps's are more for your time limits.

WoW having pathetic quest rewards? are you kidding? WoW has some of the best quest rewards ive seen in any mmo...and money from quests are great.

[Kyuzo]

A few things:
First of all, its important to be specific about the type of 'grind' you are talking about. Grinding is still grinding, even if you are doing it for gear rather than xp, or if you are doing constant quests rather than just straight killing mobs (also called questing).

Second of all, as much as people hate grinding you can pretty much expect Aion to have some sort of grind system. It's already been quoted in an article as being greater than WoW but less than L2. So take that as whatever you want, but there will be SOME WORK in the game to be done in order for people to enjoy the game. And if I had to guess, I'd say 2-3 hours a week definitely won't cut it, if you want to enjoy the game at a reasonable pace. Try 10-12 hours (which is less than 2 hours a day) a week for Aion.

The XP grind in WoW is really a joke compared to L2. The grind in WoW lies in trying to obtain top gear which is a bit different than a lot of MMORPGS. Lineage 2 has by far the most notorious grind for being long and boring that people associate with Korean grinders. When I tell people I'm looking into Aion, a Korean MMORPG, everyone usually responds with the "Not another Korean Grinder" comment. Keep in mind that Koreans enjoy these types of games. There are hundreds more MMORPG games out in Korea than available to the states and Europoe. But Lineage 2 by NCsoft is still on top with most subscribers despite the grind.

It may sound unnecessary of someone to tell another to play another MMO if they can't handle the grind, but it's something to think about. Can you honestly expect to play through Aion with only 2 or 3 hours in a WEEK? I'm sure we all have other things to do in our lives, I usually manage to get at least 2 hours a day worth of gaming while in college.

[truemajeed]

To Pancak3s

In exp terms...1k when you need to earn 30k is not a lot...



And that is kinda my point... almost everyone posting here seems to be such a MMO junkie that they have a pretty distorted view of 'reasonnableness'.... people who have jobs / homework etc can't play within the week, and do things other than play MMOs all weekend... so 1.5hrs each day of the weekend is a reasonnable casual ammount to play... maybe you class hardcore players as those who sponge off others and do nothing but play games 24/7...

I suppose you don't know what I'm talking about, however. You think I'm a nutcase lightweight who should shove off and do something else rather than play games. Games are only for obsessives. And I'm starting to believe it. Spending 2-3 hours a week doing anything else (besides normal stuff like sleeping etc) would be considered pretty dedicated...

[Dallyoop]

Originally Posted by truemajeed

To Pancak3s

In exp terms...1k when you need to earn 30k is not a lot...



And that is kinda my point... almost everyone posting here seems to be such a MMO junkie that they have a pretty distorted view of 'reasonnableness'.... people who have jobs / homework etc can't play within the week, and do things other than play MMOs all weekend... so 1.5hrs each day of the weekend is a reasonnable casual ammount to play... maybe you class hardcore players as those who sponge off others and do nothing but play games 24/7...

I suppose you don't know what I'm talking about, however. You think I'm a nutcase lightweight who should shove off and do something else rather than play games. Games are only for obsessives. And I'm starting to believe it. Spending 2-3 hours a week doing anything else (besides normal stuff like sleeping etc) would be considered pretty dedicated...

So by your definition, anything does for over 3 hours is hard core? hardly. when i was playing FFXI i would spend something crazy like 14 hours a day on that game. THAT was hardcore. I spent about 3-4 hours a day when i played WoW... and UO... THAT was casual. I play Lotro once everyweek for about 3-4 hours. That is non-exsistant. That is so far below casual that it isn't even funny. Heck, i spend over 2 hours just messing around in the AH looking at all the stuff i can't buy. I have no idea how you would ever reach max level before you die of old age if you only did 2-3 hours a week. They would probably discontinue the game after about 10 years and you would only be level 10 just getting your wings!

And a matter of example. Lotro - i used to play everyday, for about 4 hours a day. I got up to level 30 really fast. - I then lost alittle interest in the game and my brothers schedule started to conflict, so i only played once a week for 6-8 hours... i made it up to level 35 semi slowly... I now play once a week for about 3 hours --- guess what level i am... 36 and it has taken about 2 months.

if i did the math, if i even played once a week for 6-8 hours a day, at level 36 that i am now... it would take about 6 months to hit level 50. IF i could decicate 6-8 hours solid with no breaks... 6 months = any friends i make that are the same level as me when i made em, wont even remember me by the time i hit max level. haha.

[Razakiel]

I think we can conclude that the difference between 'Hardcore' gamer and 'Casual' gamer is completely relative. To the self-supported, full-time worker, 3-5 hours a week is basically all that can be mustered. To the one who doesn't support themselves, and has nothing else to do, 3-5 hours a day is casual. It can't be a definite set of time for all.

Also, a lot of the points I've read consider the only point of playing the game is to "Reach max level cap/end game". If that works for you, great. But for those who work their butt off every day, and can only get a couple hours of relief , then that's their thing. Doesn't mean they shouldn't play.

[Morrobane]

In MMO standards anything less than 5 hours is pretty much inactivity. Thats the genre, so few of the players spend that little time in game that it's not going to curb in your favor. As one person said, that pace would be so slow that you'd have difficulty maintaining friendships as everyone you meet would be passing you, almost making it a single player experience. It matters nothing to me who chooses to pay the subsrciption fee but if you only put that many hours in I don't know how you justify that to yourself. Doesn't seem financially worth it for the payoff.

As for this community being MMO junkies....well, what do you expect coming to an active forum for an MMO that doesn't even have a release date yet?

[Kyuzo]

Is casual and hardcore relative?

14 hours a day is definately hardcore. I don't think anyone disputes that.
But I wouldn't call 3-4 hours a day casual either. If you're playing an MMO 3-4 hours a day you're only fooling yourself if you call yourself a casual gamer.

But 2-3 hours a week? How can that be "hardcore" or "dedicated" by any stretch of the imagination? That means you're logging on Saturday for 1 hour and Sunday for another hour. Yep, thats pretty "dedicated", you figured out how to run the interface and where the town's buyshops are in the span of time of 1 week. (/end sarcasm) I easily watch at least 5 hours of TV a week, and it seems that I hardly watch any TV anymore.

[Pancak3s]

what the...

So your saying 2-4 hours a day is hardcore? lol please... if you log in 2-3 hours a WEEK your INACTIVE ... i dont care how you try to justify it. I work full time, go to school full time, and have a social life... yet i still manage 2-4 hours a night... and weekends if nothing is going on (especially on sundays) ill play for quite some time.

The definition does not change drastically per person, anything about 2-4+ hours a day is considered casual in MMO's. Seriously its an MMO... its ment to take time to accomplish goals. Anything over 10+ hours a day i would consider hardcore.

Like i said before, it sounds like MMO's are not for you, at the rate of 2-3 hours per week im surprised you even accomplish anything at all in game, and isnt that a waste of $14.99 a month when you can be playing other games for free. Dunno, but it just sounds like you want it all for nothing.

Maybe its just me or maybe you just need to manage time better.

[Dallyoop]

Originally Posted by Razakiel

I think we can conclude that the difference between 'Hardcore' gamer and 'Casual' gamer is completely relative. To the self-supported, full-time worker, 3-5 hours a week is basically all that can be mustered. To the one who doesn't support themselves, and has nothing else to do, 3-5 hours a day is casual. It can't be a definite set of time for all.

Also, a lot of the points I've read consider the only point of playing the game is to "Reach max level cap/end game". If that works for you, great. But for those who work their butt off every day, and can only get a couple hours of relief , then that's their thing. Doesn't mean they shouldn't play.

Unless you are an extreame workaholic then I would hardly say 3-4 hours is all that could be mustered. How much time do people spend in front of the tv? Now if you are saying that you would rather spend that time watching tv, or doing any other number of activites, then fine, it then becomes a matter of priorites.

Personally, i work full time, 5-6 days a week, I go to the gym, I have a very time consuming girlfriend (whom i don't be-grudge a bit) And i also try to make time for my friends/family... and yet somehow i still have 2-3 hours to spend surfing the web or playing on the computer a night... I guess it comes down to priorites and time management.

And no... i don't consider myself hardcore anymore, as i only play 2-3 hours a night on a comp. I consider myself casual in the extreame. But i do agree, it is reletive, but the general opinion of the masses as usual, dictate what the general numbers will be.

i think the term people should use for 2-3 hours a week isn't casual... i think that term would be - sporadic. A sporadic gamer.

Sorry i keep ediing my post, but more ideas keep popping into my head. -- If you want to really get somewhere in a game and you only have 2-3 hours a week to play, i would actually recommend a online FPS, that way you get to talk to people, but still have short time periods and no set amount of time you need to play to finish quests ect. Another type of game i would recommend is a RTS. Like warcraft 3 or starcraft or anything like that. Usually you can finish a level within 30 mins to 1 hour, so that way you can feel like you have really gotten something done without having to put too much time into it.

[Morrobane]

2-4 hours a day is absoultely a definite commitment. Thats about what I'd average, sometimes a bit more. And at that point you are definitely spending time on a game that could be invested somewhere else. Its up to the user to decide what's best. It certaintly shouldn't be considered negligable though.

But then again the average american spends 4 hours a day watching tv anyway. I'm not saying that is the case with anyone discussing this (or making any judgement on it whatsoever), but to me its more healthy to spend that time on a MMO than in front of the tv. I've never heard someone who watches TV for that long called hardcore, or that they must not have a life, switching that time to a MMO shouldn't be any different. And actually the person would be spending their time more engaged socially and mentally.

[Lojik]

Imo its not about the grinding but more about if your playing for fun or playing just to level, I hate it when i have to play just to level, but in all MMO's its needed. Anarchy Online I played for about 5 years, although at times i found my self grinding to level, allot of the time (due to the community) i enjoyed myself while i was leveling. for the hardcore people RFO is a grind, the game is based on grinding, you have to grind your skills to max them, you only get around 1% exp on a good day of 12hrs play at lvl 49. anyway I'm moving off topic.

Quests are imo a grind as well, if done right you will not notice the grind as you are enjoying the quest and the group your with doing it, but doing quests to level is just another form of grind, every thing you do in a MMO to advance your character is the Grind, there is no non-grind MMO out there, even EvE Online where there is no levels and exp is a grind, the grind is in the time you have to wait for the skills to finish, the grind is farming cash to buy a new ship to pilot.

MMO's are a grind no matter what you do there will be a type of grind in any MMO. the way the developers adapt that grind and make you do the grind is how you perceive weather or not you believe the game is a grind or just plain fun.

L

[Razakiel]

Originally Posted by Dallyoop

Sorry i keep ediing my post, but more ideas keep popping into my head.

Haha, I do the same thing.

Anyway, hope no one things I'm personally involved in my debate. Hell, I spend at least 5 hours a day sitting here. Just doing the whole 'Devil's Advocate' thing.

I still believe there's some relativity to it. And it all depends on the play style of the person. And hell, some people are smart enough that they can get a lot accomplished in a couple hours.

I still disagree that pushing to cap level as soon and fast as possible is the point of MMO's. True, you can't keep up with friends/guild, etc. But to my experience, there's always someone who's your level, or close. Anyway...I'll stick with my 'It all depends on play style' argument. Still...as long as you're having fun, who cares, right?

[TwilightAngel]

Originally Posted by truemajeed

To Pancak3s

In exp terms...1k when you need to earn 30k is not a lot...



And that is kinda my point... almost everyone posting here seems to be such a MMO junkie that they have a pretty distorted view of 'reasonnableness'.... people who have jobs / homework etc can't play within the week, and do things other than play MMOs all weekend... so 1.5hrs each day of the weekend is a reasonnable casual ammount to play... maybe you class hardcore players as those who sponge off others and do nothing but play games 24/7...

I suppose you don't know what I'm talking about, however. You think I'm a nutcase lightweight who should shove off and do something else rather than play games. Games are only for obsessives. And I'm starting to believe it. Spending 2-3 hours a week doing anything else (besides normal stuff like sleeping etc) would be considered pretty dedicated...

erm if you can only play 1-4hrs a week then you or anyone shouldnt be playing a MMO unless its F2p bc thats just a waste of money........BTW its really not hard to get in 5-10hrs a week dont say bc somone can get 20+hrs a week that they dont have a life.......hell i know many ppl that have school and Work + homework but yet are abole to play more then 3hrs a day