Weapon Skill / Proficiency

[gerrykeen19]

Hi, new here, just thought id start a thread asking this question ;

Will there be a leveling system / skill system for weapon types ie. Two handed swords or one handed etc,

If anyone has played ffxi (and im sure a few other games) you'll know what i mean.

I played LOTRO and was a bit dissapointed that anyone could just pick up a sword and swing it around as masterfully as the next guy.

Is there any information on this at all?

NB. i asked this in another forum and didnt get much info, probably because there isnt any :P but maybe Ayase might drop by.

[Hilramorre]

Instead of just giving one game that did it as an example of how it's done. Why not instead explain how it's done so that everyone will understand?

PS. I tried playing FFXI, but found it to be such a bore that I couldn't even get past level fifteen.

[Marchosias]

Well, WoW has the same sort of thing, though I imagine it's a lot easier to level in WoW... basically at level one you have a max skill of 5 in what ever weapon you're trained to use and every level the cap increases by 5. At first it's not that big a deal, but after a couple levels you'll notice if you try to pick up a new weapon at attack with it. You'll miss more and if you hit you do less damage. You won't notice a difference of only a couple levels, but if you get too far behind you'll severely cripple yourself.

Basically, it's just a system of limiting people's ability to just pick up any old weapon they find and suddenly be as proficient with it as someone who's been using it for a while (in WoW you also had to train most weapons, and certain classes only had the ability to train certain weapons, so no mages with 2-hand axes, not sure if FFXI has the same deal).

[Hilramorre]

Well in my experience that tends to make for a less enjoyable experience. As it means if I find some nice new shiny rapier I might not be able to use it just because while I was a newb, I kept using the nice little club I started off with. Severely limiting a player's choices, or forcing them to spend time doing repetitive and unenjoyable tasks is never a good idea.

[Ecronyte]

PS. I tried playing FFXI, but found it to be such a bore that I couldn't even get past level fifteen.

>.> better watch out. Lot of FFXI fanatics on the boards. Although I don't totally disagree from my low lvl experience.

In L2 you got masteries just like you got skills. If you were a tank you got, heavy armor mastery, shield mastery, and sword blunt mastery. They all boosted the effectiveness of said items.

I like lvling skill with a sword, or the L2 system. I don't like being told I can't use a given weapon.

[Monarch]

The type of skill experience system you describe has existed in MMOs since they were conceived. Go check out EverQuest and Ultima Online. This was a prevalent system in both. (And it, naturally, also existed prior to that in MUDs.)

I find that, for the most part, Korean/Chinese designed MMOs tend to not use this system, however. Which makes sense as it is a largely redundant system that rarely has much (if any) effect on gameplay, as they usually level naturally along with your avatar.

The notable exception being FFXI, of course. In this western-influenced (but Japanese-designed) MMO it was both important to the game, and required specific attention buy the player to level up the skills separately.

---

So... will Aion have it? I think any speculation on that is moot until we get more information. The real question is: If Aion does have it, how should it work?

[gerrykeen19]

Well as explained it works by using the weapon to gain skill it so you do more damage in comparison to your leve land you dont miss.

Personally its a realistic / fun system because in ffxi it rewarded you with not just the ability to hit things! and do more damage , but also with weapon specific skills

Its my opinion, but to me it doesn't make much sense a mage being able to use heavy armor or a giant axe.

Clerics for example i see generally using hammers / clubs, but not swords etc.

I think that will be the case anyway with Aion, you wont be seeing mages with swords to start with. I could be wrong, but although its a korean mmo, its clearly influenced by western mmos. (please feel free to disagree, i have my reasons to say this but its for another thread really)

The system worked quite well in ffxi, if you stuck to just one weapon type (ie, swords rapiers etc which would fall under 1 handed swords) your skill would always be relative to your characters level and thus you'd be able to hit monsters etc and use the weapon skills you were rewarded with up to that point.

However if you were to choose to use a one handed sword and switch to an axe, naturally wouldnt be as proficient in it, and imo you should have to train with it to be just as efficient with it.

As long as their is a reward at set skill levels such as weapon skills like in FFXI i think it would be a good system and something to make you feel accomplishment when youv mastered a weapon and have achieved all skills associated with it.

[Niteo]

I like this idea... i have to agree that a person who has never used a sword befor should not be able to hit as well as a person whos used the weapon all the way to 50... I still believ people should be able to use any weapon they choose but there are gonna be certaint weapons that classes fid are better for them and they usaully stick with them. I also don't believe a cleric should be able to level in a sword as well as a worrior can and a worrior can't lvl as fast in wands or staffs as a mage can and so on.

[Marchosias]

Originally Posted by gerrykeen19

Its my opinion, but to me it doesn't make much sense a mage being able to use heavy armor or a giant axe.

Ok, this is going to seem off-topic but I'll tie it back in toward the end... or middle (I hope), so bear with me.

I completely disagree here. I've mentioned this in some other thread that I'm way too lazy to go fish up, so I'll just say it again (which ironically is more work, but whatever). If you think about, a mage should absolutely be able to throw on some heavy armor and pick up an axe. Of course, they shouldn't really ever want to because it wouldn't be beneficial... or would it. Here's my take: L2 touched on this a little bit, but not nearly in the scope that I'm thinking. Every class should be able to use every weapon and armor. Not every weapon will be viable for every class, since certain abilities wouldn't be able to be used with certain weapons (can't shank someone with a 2-hand axe or a spellbook), but every armor should have pros and cons for every class.

The way L2 touched on this was that certain classes had the option to specialize in more than one armor type. I won't pretend to have significant experience with the game, so I don't know if both options were actually viable/acceptable, but the option was there. An example, I think the gladiator could choose heavy or light armor and each had benefits and drawbacks (again, not a lot of experience with the game, so I'm not sure). What I want to see in Aion is viability for each type of armor. Say you're a mage and you've got plenty of mana and you're more than happy with your casting speed. Well, then it might beneficial for you to wear plate armor. It's will drop your mana pool and slow down your cast speed, since it's so much heavier, but it will give you added protection in case you pull aggro from a slacking tank or if you're in PvP. If you're confident in the abilities of your teammates and you want to go all-out damage, then grab the extra mana and cast speed from cloth armor, or go with some middle-ground chain/leather.

The same thing can be applied across most classes (with some classes it probably wouldn't be practical... like an assassin running around in noisy chain and bulky plate, but I'd at least give them the option of using it at the expensive of stealth effectiveness and attack speed). Now, for those who like the conventional approach of casters in cloth, heavy melee in plate, buffers in chain, scouts in leather, this system is obviously going to seem a bit alien at first, and will most likely deter, but I think if you're able to free yourself from the confines of tradition this system will actual turn out for the best.

As for the tie in, in order to see the full benefit of the armor there could be a specialization system similar to L2. Whether it's part of the overall specialization or an independent system for armor alone (meaning specializing in a specific type of armor doesn't mean you have fewer points to put into, say, your fireball) would be up for more discussion. Anyway, like L2 as you put points into the specialization you see an increase in the extra armor provided or and increase in the mana/casting speed bonus.

With this kind of system though you have to be careful to balance it out so one doesn't dominate where it shouldn't. This is easily avoidable if you take item stats into consideration, so the "best" armor depends on the stats of your armor pieces, not just the specialization bonuses. That said, it would be hard to determine when a type of armor shouldn't be viable for a specific class. For example, should a tank be able to use cloth armor? If the tank is melee-based this could simply replace damage absorption with dodge. This could potentially make a much better tank, or could just mean that when the tank gets hit he gets hit HARD and creates a huge head-ache for the healers. Now, if he's wearing cloth though, should he wear a shield. Logically, a heavy shield would let him block, but would decrease his dodge. So, we've now taken a simple tank class and by simply letting him spec a different armor created an entirely different sub-class. Instead of a sword and shield he's now using, say, two swords. In one knight class now we've got two different kinds of tank, one that sucks up damage for a consistent health loss, and the other that manages aggro much better (via increased damage), and is easier on mana since he's taking less damage, but gets hit very sporadically and is actually harder to heal, especially if he gets hit twice in a row. Then again, the other sword/shield is getting hit less, since he can block with his shield... so which is favorable?

The point is that the system opens up a whole different kind of specialization without having to really add many, if any, new skills. The same character can play very differently just by using a different kind of armor... although I admit the biggest different would be the one I went into detail about with the tank, and other classes would see a much more subdued effect, but whatever...

Sorry for the wall... most people will skip it, so to those who actually read the whole thing, thank you, I hope you liked it... if not, please comment, I'd love to hear feedback (but don't go too off-topic, I don't wanna hijack the thread... maybe I should start my own).

[Necrosis]

I'll take a guess, based off L2 and Aion's "casual audience" aim, that there won't be. It's just one of those systems that tend to limit your future choices if you don't take the effort early on, and that just doesn't seem casually accessible.

[gerrykeen19]

Originally Posted by Marchosias

Stuff ...

I agree with that to an extent... because its armor type, which i think is a little different than weapons.

If for instance a mages wants to wear heavy armor, thats ok, providing there are penalties associated with it and obviously the bonus to protection.

I still don't think i can say the same for weapons. It just seems to go against the ethos and general .. mage-ness (lol.. cant think of a better word) to be going around with a two handed axe., or an assassin weilding two handed sword.

It just doesnt make sense to me i guess.

Im all for character customization, but too an extent. Realism isnt generally a good arguement to base upon, but it can be associated with games like this to make it feel a little more authentic.

btw, Necrosis. WoW is considered a casual game and so is LOTRO. However, WOW to my knowledge has a similar system, and LOTRO has a few hardcore elements (albeit too few) but thats because its considered the most casual mainstream mmo out there.

Just because its aimed at a casual audience doesnt mean it wont have elements which in my opinion give more immersion and a goal to work towards. To be honest, i think Aion will be casual in the way people level and what you can do in 30 mins if you dont have hours to play, it doesnt mean it shall exclude other in-depth systems etc.

[Hilramorre]

Marc's view on this is very similar to mine. My entire problem with the system of having to level up different weapon skills is that it really limits a player's options to such an extent that it just makes it not fun.

So what if someone who has used a sword for fifty years would be better than someone who just started? We're playing in a fantasy world, ignoring things like this is forgivable if it leads to a more enjoyable gaming experience.

[Marchosias]

Originally Posted by gerrykeen19

I agree with that to an extent... because its armor type, which i think is a little different than weapons.

If for instance a mages wants to wear heavy armor, thats ok, providing there are penalties associated with it and obviously the bonus to protection.

I still don't think i can say the same for weapons. It just seems to go against the ethos and general .. mage-ness (lol.. cant think of a better word) to be going around with a two handed axe., or an assassin weilding two handed sword.

It just doesnt make sense to me i guess.

I think I very briefly touched on this, but the point was probably lost somewhere in the wall... I completely agree that there shouldn't be any reason for some classes to use some weapons. Since a two-hand axe is all about swinging a heavy, sharp weight at someone there really isn't any reason a mage would use this. Even if it had +magical bonuses, its inherent traits would focus on melee damage rather than magical, and thus wouldn't be of use to a mage.

That probably came out kinda confusing, so I'll try give an example. Say you have an Axe with 200 physical damage, 25 magic damage (boost to magical attacks), and 2.0 speed (one swing every 2 seconds on auto-attack), and +50 magic damage. Now, the +50 magic damage might be good for the mage, who, in theory, could use the 2-hand axe. However, if a spellbook had 25 physical damage (slapping someone in the face with the book - Axels, "Weapon Options?"), 150 magic damage (boost to magical attacks), and 2.0 speed (1 physical slap every 2 seconds), and +50 magic damage that's a total of +200 magic damage for the caster. So, while it's possible for them to use the 2-hand axe, it's not practical because books are just that much better, they're more attuned to a mage's needs. This axe might be better suited for a priest or chanter to solo with, since they'll likely be using a lot of melee attacks while soloing, but will still want a boost to their magic (in groups they will probably be focusing on healing/chanting/general magic, so a spellbook or something would be more practical in this situation).

Hope that clarifies things a bit. The end result would be a much broader range of options for armor, and weapons would remain more or less the same, the only difference being you have the option to use any weapon, but are lacking on incentive, rather than just being told "sorry, but if a mage tries to grab an axe his hands will fall off and his eyes explode... so too bad. You lose. You get nothing. Good day, sir."

[Ecronyte]

The end result would be a much broader range of options for armor, and weapons would remain more or less the same, the only difference being you have the option to use any weapon, but are lacking on incentive, rather than just being told "sorry, but if a mage tries to grab an axe his hands will fall off and his eyes explode... so too bad. You lose. You get nothing. Good day, sir."

I couldn't have said it any better myself. People should have the freedom to use whatever they want.

Yeah a mage using a huge, hulking, battle axe may not be practical in the game. Maybe it makes the mage half as effective. Maybe people give the mage funny looks for nerfing him/her self. But at least they have the freedom to choose. I don't see why the developers should tell anyone what they can and can't use.

[gerrykeen19]

Ok, under the assumption Aion won't restrict weapons to specific classes (which i kinda think it will, even LOTRO did this, and thats extremely casual)

I still think being able to use a weapon you just picked up for the first time and use it just as skillfully as someone who used it for years, doesnt make sense. Fantasy world or not.

Yes it limits people to extent, but its also called progression. You dont just start at level 50 and masterful in all weapons and spells.

If you really wanted to pick up that battle axe as a mage, he should have to train with it to be effective with it.

Think of it as specializing then as a different way. Instead of not being able to use a weapon effectively, if you specialized / trained in one weapon, you gained bonuses associated with the type you chose. Wouldnt that be a rewarding experience?

That way you could still use any weapon you wanted to at any time, and still hit things with it, but unless you specialized or trained with it, you wouldnt have the bonuses to damage / hit or extra skills associated with it.