Who actually enjoys grinding?

[Acyd]

Man i remember driving work back in 2003 thinking of the Maat fight. Over and over. It dwelled on me the whole time i was trying to beat em. Maat casts Chainspell! Your Sleep has been resisted. DEAD. sigh.

[BahamutKaiser]

I think it is all relative, some people, especially MMO players, have alot more tolerance for grinding. But as a rule of optimization, which will allow the majority of people to enjoy the game, I would say 3 months regular play, 6 months casual.

I think it is more important to eliminate grind altogether though, this means it doesn't matter how long the character development is, because the actual activites pursued to reach those ends are fun enough to not be called grinding. A few significant points to note on this is gameplay action escalation. Like many console action games, you only start out with a few moves, and I'm not talking about weaker attacks, but actual movement and combination options. As you get further in the game, the abilities and operation of your character get more complex, making it more challenging, more fun, and less monotinous. Where you may have been only attacking for the first 5 levels, you now have to block occasionally in the next 5 levels, then you learn to double jump, then you learn how to dash around, next your flying, etc. By gradually introducing more complex and enjoyable gameplay elements, it allows normal players the time to practice new abilities, and it keeps the gameplay experience fresh.

Hopefully we will have some significant gameplay escalation in Aion, I honestly don't give a damn how high the levels go, that's no different than another series of DBZ, same thing, new "power level". It is the unique elements which expand the gameplay to a new horizon that make it more interesting. Personally, if I had a say, reaching level 50 would be the max, and your level would be removed and replaced with an accomplishment teir. At which point, a new more complex character development scheme would be added which allows you to enhance your character in seperate aspects, and focus on gaining new abilities rather than becoming "stronger". And abilities which operate different than existing ones, not just more powerful versions of the same stuff.

Considering that they mentioned that flight time will not be tied to level, it is more likely that it can still be increased, but through a seperate pursuit, and likewise, other enhancement aspects would be more interesting and enjoyable to pursue through interesting and challenging quests and minigames rather than pealing out another row of mobs to get 20 more health points.

[Katsuro]

Originally Posted by Disrupter

Interesting. I'll have to check that out, I'd not heard of it.

From what you've said here, since I'm obviously not privvy to the underbelly mechanics of it, this would seem like a great alternate progression path for a MMO. To protect the 'sanctity' so to speak, at least for me, of PVE though it would be great to have two differing character levels. One for PVE activity and one for PVP. Gain PVP experience and levels defeating other players while still offering that seperate progression path for the PVE oriented players. Perhaps allow abilities gained from PVP grinding to be used in PVE situations as well as a sort of incentive to the hardcore player to pursue both?

I like this idea.

with the way AI is going, for monsters and such, I would find it much more fun to gain lots of exp from killing one EXTREMELY hard monster and or a bunch of players rather than sit in 1 area for 4 hours gaining 20% exp. The mechanics in the game are quite simple and crude, but for some reason you can't help but be addicted to pbing (point blank shot) and hack/slashing people while bouncing off the walls.

[Delthis]

For the most part, I like the grind. As long as I get a change of scenery every now and then.

The only types of grinds I hate are the endless grinds with grinds upon grinds upon grinds, like WoW. I swear, if you weren't grinding something in that game, you were sitting around twittling your thumbs in Shattrath.

[Disrupter]

Originally Posted by Delthis

For the most part, I like the grind. As long as I get a change of scenery every now and then.

The only types of grinds I hate are the endless grinds with grinds upon grinds upon grinds, like WoW. I swear, if you weren't grinding something in that game, you were sitting around twittling your thumbs in Shattrath.

Agreed. Though, to play Devil's Advocate here, there was no end to the goals a player could work at. For example, a friend of mine would always be grinding some sort of reputation somewhere when we weren't raiding. Fairly certain he was working on Exalted for that rep that does nothing in Dire Maul, Shendrelar or some such. Although his only reward for doing so is a full reputation bar amongst 30 other reputation bars, all of which were full.

I asked him what he would do when he was Exalted (max rep level) everywhere with nothing else to do and he simply said he would quit. The grind kept him coming back every month. Not like WoW raiding was fun anymore.

Grind without purpose isn't my bag personally. Grind with reward is acceptable to me, provided that isn't the only point of the game.

[Calindor]

Grinding or questing has nothing to do with party or solo, you can do that on either. It all depends on the game. Quests that say "go kill and bring me back 20 wolf fangs is no different than grinding out the wolves...except that there is tedious running around in between. Quests in most quest based games get just as repetitive as grinding....especially EVE, that game has the worst quest system ever.

Questing in WoW for example, I hated. I hated constantly running between areas...I'd rather be killing things. I hated aving to figure out which quests to take, and which spots to goto...maybe I'd run 10 minutes to a spot and find out theres only 1 quest there, when it could have been more efficient to find another spot. Or maybe in an area you missed a NPC that was out of a town with good quests...but mainly I hated the running and flying from place to place.

Questing can be fun if done right...but for example a hardcore player in L2 will take 6-8 months to hit near the level cap...then another 5-6 months to get his subclass near the level cap...not to manage the quests that take a week or two to do. Do you think people would enjoy questing in WoW if it took a year or so to hit lvl 70? I dont know about you but I'd find it the most boring piece of crap ever made if I had to spend hours every day for months doing those quests and repeatable dungeons.

Grinding is also what you make it...you can solo smacking mobs, or you can get a full party going. A mage party in L2 with full buffs can get pretty intense and be pretty hard work when you've got multiple supports buffing, other recharging mana nonstop, and a few nukers going crazy on mobs for an hour non-stop without rest...You can make an AoE train party and pull a dozen or two mobs into a corner and smack them with spears...that can get dangerous though when you depend on life-stealing buffs...in a high level spot like Forge of the Gods you can expect to die every buff round trying that

Personally what I would like to see is more exp from raiding. In L2 you could get a full level by killing one of the Epic bosses, but when they spawn only once a week its not very efficient. Maybe they could include some hard to kill raids based on exp and not drops that a randomly formed party can handle.

Originally Posted by Fair

I'm skeptical about grinding being a barrier to noobs or kids. Griding takes no skill at all, just time, which usually is what kids have plenty of.
Anyway I don't mind the leveling up (actually it is nice seeing you character growing up). I just wouldn't want to go through this all over again the second and third time. I think it should be made much quicker for people who already reached level cap with 1 character and what to experience the game from differnt angles.

As opposed to what? Going through an instance? Or picking up a quest that says go kill X amount of Y mob?

[Theron]

After having to run in multiple groups, raids, doing tons of quests....I find grinding a relaxing change of scenery where I can move at my own =)

[Aeshec]

Who actually enjoys grinding? Not I. I hate grinding. I have so many other things that I could be doing with my time. Like running into another tree whilst mountain biking and thus breaking yet another collarbone.

[Disrupter]

Originally Posted by Calindor

Personally what I would like to see is more exp from raiding. In L2 you could get a full level by killing one of the Epic bosses, but when they spawn only once a week its not very efficient. Maybe they could include some hard to kill raids based on exp and not drops that a randomly formed party can handle.

I'd like to see this as well, though in a form not directly related to character level. I tend to only like raiding when already at max level. Getting raid points if at max level to appropriate towards more stats, new abilities, or something along those lines would be fantastic and give some sort of meaning besides experiencing the raid content just to experience it. Because honestly, if experiencing it is the only reason to check out raid content, you won't be back a second time. Allowing the player to progress while experiencing the content would give it a more solid staying power.

[Delthis]

Originally Posted by Disrupter

Agreed. Though, to play Devil's Advocate here, there was no end to the goals a player could work at. For example, a friend of mine would always be grinding some sort of reputation somewhere when we weren't raiding. Fairly certain he was working on Exalted for that rep that does nothing in Dire Maul, Shendrelar or some such. Although his only reward for doing so is a full reputation bar amongst 30 other reputation bars, all of which were full.

I asked him what he would do when he was Exalted (max rep level) everywhere with nothing else to do and he simply said he would quit. The grind kept him coming back every month. Not like WoW raiding was fun anymore.

Grind without purpose isn't my bag personally. Grind with reward is acceptable to me, provided that isn't the only point of the game.

I can understand that. I think he is crazy since he is willing to grind out all those mobs just to hit exalted, but setting goals is something I like to do. I'm just more of a "short-term goal" person.

[Disrupter]

Originally Posted by Delthis

I can understand that. I think he is crazy since he is willing to grind out all those mobs just to hit exalted, but setting goals is something I like to do. I'm just more of a "short-term goal" person.

Oh to be quite clear he is 100% bat **** crazy.

But he was given the option to be so and he took it. Options are always good in my estimation.

I'm also a goal-oriented player, though I tend to focus on facets that will improve my character's functionality more so than cosmetic or aesthetic rewards like my crazy online WoW Pal there.

[BahamutKaiser]

It's important to seperate enjoyable activity and grind when your considering this topic. Of course people want plenty to do, it wouldn't be fun if the gameplay didn't last. The issue is where do activities become grind. I find that it is usually the quality of gameplay, wheras you don't have "grind" in an RTS or FPS game, because there isn't any character development, and your playing for the sheer enjoyment of the gameplay, likewise you can totally eliminate grind, no matter how long the character development is, as long as the activites pursued are not monotinous or unenjoyable.

That is however somewhat due to opinion, because some will call monotinous content grind, and others will accept it, but we all have a threshold for monotinous and unenjoyable activites, and you should never be participating in an activity souly for the reward.

[Momo]

I don't mind a bit of grind. It makes being on a higher level just that little bit more satisfying xD
But there is a point where it's too much. Makes me not want to play anymore 8(

[Jack]

Grinding? no, I have a life and want to enjoy leveling.