Who actually enjoys grinding?

[BahamutKaiser]

Repetition of the same few things is monotany, repetition of several different things is not monotany, and repetition of several different things is not grind either. Thus, the classification of grind is explicitlly undesirable repetition of monotinous activity, repetition without monotany isn't grind, and does not qualify, being to general.

Thus we will take this out of the hands of opinion, and place it in definition.

As defined by language.
grind - Synonyms from Thesaurus.com
Definition: A habitual, laborious, often tiresome course of action.
Definition: To do tedious, laborious, and sometimes menial work.
Definition: One who works or toils tirelessly.

grind - Definitions from Dictionary.com
17. laborious, usually uninteresting work

As defined by the public.
Grind (gaming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
1. Grinding is a term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game.
2. To Grind means to do one task the most efficient way possible in a repetitious manner.

As I said, the reason we cannot agree on whether grind is good or bad, is because some of you do not understand the legitimate definition of grind, and postulate your own opinion based on your own definition. I did not ask you what you thought about it, because your opinion on the definition is meaningless, I've had plenty of conversations about this, and the definition is specific to the nature of monotinous activity, not just repetition, if it was repetition alone, people would not complain about it, because it is the condition and situation that the repetition is involved that creates grind.

You can have an opinion on whether or not an activity is grind, you cannot have an opinion on the definition of grind.

Your definition is about as accurate as sever is to behead, beheading is a sever, sever is not a behead, sever does not describe the specific qualifications of beheading. Likewise repetition does not mean grind. I researched my definitions and qualify them by recognition, if grind did not define the topic I wished to express, I would have used the appropriate word. Grind is a poor gameplay element, end of discussion.

[Jacarr]

I actually don't mind grinding. FFXI had a perfect pace. Getting a level was an accomplishment but at the same time it didn't take as long as a typical Korean F2P game to get one. Sitting down for a good day and doing hard grinding could get you a level or two.

FFXI and EQ were the only MMO's I stuck with playing because of how long it took to get things done. Any game that spoon feeds you gets old way too quick. If I wanted games to hand me everything I wouldn't be playing them.

[Sabre]

Well said Jacarr, on both your points~

[Heinel]

I cannot feel a sense of accomplishment from grinding in a supposed game, especially one that's in a virtual environment. So grind based recognitions in the game don't appeal to me.

If I had to choose, I'd wish that people have to grow their characters in mini games that either tests the intelligence of the player using logical problems, memorization, or some kind of hand-eye coordinate or twitch based stuff. Preferably on a ranking basis relative to other players.

That way, you can truly say you're superior to people of lower levels, instead of just having more time to waste.

With that being said, I wonder how will PvP accomplishments be presented in Aion...

[Sabre]

Leveling shouldn't be based on your skill of the game, that's unfair, but PvP rankings definitely will be based this way. As for accomplishments, look at the "Hero" status you can achieve in Aion, which is the #1 accomplishment in PvP you can have individually.

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by Sabre

Leveling shouldn't be based on your skill of the game, that's unfair, but PvP rankings definitely will be based this way. As for accomplishments, look at the "Hero" status you can achieve in Aion, which is the #1 accomplishment in PvP you can have individually.

A level based environment is never fair. People who spend more time in the game shouldn't get a statistical advantage anymore than people who are more skilled should.

A fair environment would be like Guild Wars, where everyone plays on a level playing field. Everyone plays at lv 20, with the same number of attribute points to spend, the same skill slots, and standardized equipments.

Personally, I do not mind an unfair environment, but not one based on time spent. The grind is introduced for the game producer to generate more revenue. It's not a sound gaming concept.

[Ceranthor]

Originally Posted by Midgarsormr

We've had a lot of threads based off of this topic, and everytime I have to add my 2 cents by saying: FFXI's insane grinding made me have so much fun -.-.

Word FFXI FTMFW... I could sit and chain 250 in Caederva Mire ALL NIGHT, Dual BRD pts > World. + Bullet for my valentine playlist = mucho experience pts. =)

[Sabre]

Originally Posted by Heinel

A level based environment is never fair. People who spend more time in the game shouldn't get a statistical advantage anymore than people who are more skilled should.

A fair environment would be like Guild Wars, where everyone plays on a level playing field. Everyone plays at lv 20, with the same number of attribute points to spend, the same skill slots, and standardized equipments.

Personally, I do not mind an unfair environment, but not one based on time spent. The grind is introduced for the game producer to generate more revenue. It's not a sound gaming concept.

That's not the point of an MMORPG, however, so I will have to disagree with you. Those who put more time in consistently deserve to be higher level. And the thousands upon thousands who reach the Lv.50 cap will be on an even playing field, without considering their equipment. You can't compare Guild Wars to any MMORPG because it is not an MMORPG, therefore it was not designed to have leveling be a factor. Bottom line is the people who play more will have better stuff, and usually will be the better skilled players, again, usually.

A leveling based game is fair. The more time you level, the higher level you will be. Higher input results in a higher output. What I was stating is that your idea of having levels be based off of skill (Such as games like Halo online) does not work for an MMORPG for obvious reasons. It's not fair to never let less skilled players experience high level areas or equipment when they may play 10+ hours a day, and let someone who plays 10 hours a week who has more skill experience these things.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Repetition of the same few things is monotany, repetition of several different things is not monotany, and repetition of several different things is not grind either. Thus, the classification of grind is explicitlly undesirable repetition of monotinous activity, repetition without monotany isn't grind, and does not qualify, being to general.

"Grinding is a term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game."
The definition of Grinding says nothing about grinding forcibly being monotonous. Hence you're wrong about me making up any definitions for my own good, as grinding mustn't be monotonous. This also makes it possible asking developers for grinding to be made less monotonous or not monotonous at all, since something being repetitive has no direct relation to something being monotonous (say, the badly implemented repetitive grind is monotonous, while the good repetitive one is not, as simple as that).
By the way, the language definition about grinding has no use when directly talking about MMORPGs.

Again, there are games that already proved it, so denying that Grinding in MMORPGs mustn't be monotonous is nothing but ignorant.

[Cynthe]

There's no reason for anyone to be right or wrong about it..... >.> Have fun grinding or not, some of us find a grind to be boring because it is monotonous and repetitive. Otherwise it wouldn't be called a grind.

By the way, the language definition about grinding has no use when directly talking about MMORPGs.

Actually there's a lot of people in the MMO world who would emphatically disagree with you, there's a lot of talk of how one could make an mmo without any grind at all or levels or classes. A system where you could choose your skills as you go and completely customize your character from the ground up.

It's not because something has been the same for years that it will remain so and that to imagine or want something else is wrong. Otherwise we'd never be as advanced as we are today.

FFXI grindage is fun because of the strategy involved which I think we'll find in Aion as well, in this case I wouldn't call it a grind I'd call just leveling.. Try to solo FFXI, then you'll know what grind is... In a group though you take the monotony out and it just becomes what it is leveling, dungeon crawling, instancing whatever. However if those fun things become monotonous in themselves and you find that you have to motivate yourself to do them, then they become grinds. It's not like it's all black and white. Some people find questing a 'grind', I have no idea what these people are on because to me it's just 'questing'. But if they see it that way it's not my place to correct them because the issue is subjective.

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by Sabre

That's not the point of an MMORPG, however, so I will have to disagree with you. Those who put more time in consistently deserve to be higher level. And the thousands upon thousands who reach the Lv.50 cap will be on an even playing field, without considering their equipment. You can't compare Guild Wars to any MMORPG because it is not an MMORPG, therefore it was not designed to have leveling be a factor. Bottom line is the people who play more will have better stuff, and usually will be the better skilled players, again, usually.

A leveling based game is fair. The more time you level, the higher level you will be. Higher input results in a higher output. What I was stating is that your idea of having levels be based off of skill (Such as games like Halo online) does not work for an MMORPG for obvious reasons. It's not fair to never let less skilled players experience high level areas or equipment when they may play 10+ hours a day, and let someone who plays 10 hours a week who has more skill experience these things.

The only argument I've seen from every forum I go to that supports grinding ALWAYS involve the notion of "work". Work more, get more back, they say.

Last I checked, it's called a massively multiplayer online role playing GAME. The work I put into the game is the $14.99. Not sitting in front of the computer, clicking a target, pressing hotkey 1, 2, then rinse and repeat.

It's about as much of a game as a human sized hamster wheel is. Except the hamster wheel is better, because it keeps you fit, so you'll be healthier.

So I'll reiterate my point. Putting grind in a game maybe a sound marketing model, what with being able to create the illusion of superiority out of nothing, but it will never be a sound gaming concept.

[k1klass]

Grinding sucks big time and does nothing but encourage bot use, from what ive seen of the moans about Lineage this is a major problem and hopefully ncsoft wont want to repeat it.

I love lots of content which has some good story lines and a bit of humor, grinding just bores me too death and if i did not mind it i would play the free mmo's of this world and not pay subscriptions.

As i see it i pay to play so the games can be worked on and developed and have lots of content.

[Disrupter]

Essentially you're presented with two options:

1) What everyone seems to be depicting as "Grind" where you do all the normal stuff to progress. Like hanging out killing monsters repeatedly, quests, whatever. This eats up some of the player's time and doesn't require a whole lot of development support. Once the framework is there, the only variables that change are player level and mob type. Very little developer work is required and thus, this feature is always available to the player regardless of when they play.

2) Wonderful content everywhere that is fun and engaging and people love it. No one has really presented a good example of this other than offering different types of grind. However, to play devil's advocate here I'll run with it. This would (in theory of course) require a huge amount of dev time considering once the player exhausts it, they are done with it. So its time to hastily create some more for the player to experience. I mean afterall, why should they have to experience the same content repeatedly? Its not a (theoretical) grind afterall! Requires HUGE dev time and once the player completes it they require more. The amount of content required to support a player from minimum level to max level in a MMO would be staggering.

So honestly, I would like to see some sort of alternate progression path offered to players I really would. But I would also like to ground my anticipations in reality, and instead hope for a combination of the two with more emphasis on that wonderful ethereal content everyone is hoping for.

You will never kill the grind in a title that is worth playing. Not because the grind makes it worth playing, but because the title is so big, there's not enough content in the world to fill it to capacity.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Heinel

The only argument I've seen from every forum I go to that supports grinding ALWAYS involve the notion of "work". Work more, get more back, they say.

Last I checked, it's called a massively multiplayer online role playing GAME. The work I put into the game is the $14.99. Not sitting in front of the computer, clicking a target, pressing hotkey 1, 2, then rinse and repeat.

It's about as much of a game as a human sized hamster wheel is. Except the hamster wheel is better, because it keeps you fit, so you'll be healthier.

So I'll reiterate my point. Putting grind in a game maybe a sound marketing model, what with being able to create the illusion of superiority out of nothing, but it will never be a sound gaming concept.

I may continue your correct thought and add that monotonous grinding has been used as addiction tool by developers and to save themselves the hassle of adding content. It worked fine, until people like us, who were looking for quality and complexity rather than illusions and addiction showed up.

Originally Posted by Cynthe

There's no reason for anyone to be right or wrong about it..... >.> Have fun grinding or not, some of us find a grind to be boring because it is monotonous and repetitive. Otherwise it wouldn't be called a grind.

Those people must be sick. I mean, I see no objective reason nor any way of thinking that something being monotonous subjectively is good, because if something is monotonous it's forcibly bad. Yea, I don't know about anyone in this world, but as a human, I simply can't think of anyone who would actually LIKE to do something very uncomplicated and easy over and over again other than for stated reasons about addiction and illusions developers tend to pur