Who actually enjoys grinding?

[Kolossus]

Originally Posted by Kaldur

LOL actually these 2 guys look more like retired BG members. HAHA.
Sorry is just too funny

KFC actually is still extremely active in FFXI. I will be as soon as I get my character restored.

I guess I fail to see the humor in saying we sound like "retired BG members". I don't even have an account on that forum, tbh. I'm guessing you found the error in your above statements, and that was your last ditch attempt at a flame, since your arguments sank pretty fast. That's ok, you are forgiven.

Azn, I appreciate you keeping this thread open. If I recall, you were a very big fan of Guild Wars, correct? Well, if people were spouting terrible untruths about GW, I'm guessing you would probably jump to correct them. That is exactly what I did here. I linked KFC to this last page, because I thought he would get a kick out of the fallacies being posted about PLD and NIN. Again, I appreciate you not locking this thread. It has given me a chance to correct things. ^^


Edit: Ding for great justice!

[Frein]

Originally Posted by Kaldur

Sorry, but giving more shadows to any of those 2 spells is just ludicrous. What I would do is to add full hate reset if any Utsusemi spell is used. I know right now casting Utsusemi decreases a little bit of hate but the drop is something not even worth mentioning.

You can't have only one viable tank class in a game. There won't be enough tanks for everyone if you do that and NCsoft would be wise to realize that.

Also, did you read my entire post? I suggested making shadows not fool proof and make them diminish in effectiveness as your shadow count goes down (the enemy becomes more likely to strike you, topping at 50% with one shadow). I also suggested linking Ichi and Ni timers so you can't chain them like NINs currently do but will instead have to cast NI only. I'm not sure NIN tanking would even be viable with the numbers I posted, so I wonder what makes you think I was suggesting buffs to NIN.

As for PLD being the number one tank job currently, sure, but let's be honest here, they're only #1 because they have access to Utsusemi. Their plate armour and shields are barely a factor because that's not what paladin defense is based on anymore.

[Kolossus]

Originally Posted by Frein

You can't have only one viable tank class in a game. There won't be enough tanks for everyone if you do that and NCsoft would be wise to realize that.

Also, did you read my entire post? I suggested making shadows not fool proof and make them diminish in effectiveness as your shadow count goes down (the enemy becomes more likely to strike you, topping at 50% with one shadow). I also suggested linking Ichi and Ni timers so you can't chain them like NINs currently do but will instead have to cast NI only. I'm not sure NIN tanking would even be viable with the numbers I posted, so I wonder what makes you think I was suggesting buffs to NIN.

As for PLD being the number one tank job currently, sure, but let's be honest here, they're only #1 because they have access to Utsusemi. Their plate armour and shields are barely a factor because that's not what paladin defense is based on anymore.

Watch it. When he is proven wrong, you become a "retired BG member".

PLD still relies greatly on it's HP, Defense, and amount of Magic Damage % down and Physical Damage % down gear that it can pile on. The shadows are just a bonus, and definitely are needed for things like Blood Weapon and Mighty Strikes, things Jormungand and Tiamat use often, respectively. Shadows are often down, and if you can't absorb more than 2 hits, you probably aren't geared correctly/your mages are terrible.

Edit: Azn, I just realized your avatar and signature is the SSB:M character from Fire Emblem. I can't remember his name.

[Disrupter]

Originally Posted by Frein

You can't have only one viable tank class in a game. There won't be enough tanks for everyone if you do that and NCsoft would be wise to realize that.

Moving away from the FFXI strategy discussion here, this is a great point.

However, "viable" is still a subjective statement. Whether a class is not the best tank for a situation, does not make it non-viable, it just makes it not as beneficial to use.

That said, I'm a raider. I will use the most beneficial tank available for each situation. If Aion supports multiple tank types and they're actually different in usefulness in various situations we will be utilizing both as we see fit.

Blanket statements are almost always inaccurate. Yes, I know thats a blanket statement itself.

[Defiler]

I know this thread is now HUGE but I think alot of ppl are forgetting that this company made L2. The design of L2, as far as grind and lvling go, proves that even the hardcore did not like the lvling as evidenced by the HUGE numbers of ppl botting/running trains for xp. On euro servers, the bots ran as high as 70%+ of the server population. On bartz, it was huge and I know personally that about half of the heros prior to last update were botted up.

Going from lvl 77 to 78 took months of constant grind, with an average timeframe of 6 months playing regularly, until heros came and then you could get powerlvled by a hero tank running huge trains in a high xp location, unless it was locked out by the clan in charge at the time banning other players to lvl there. Due to the lack of NCSoft gm's in game banning obvioius botters, it became impossible to stop them. I'm guessing ncsoft will again allow botting in this game thru the use of macros. Nostromo is the easiest way to bot for single or multiple chars by allowing you to let a program play for you while you eat a sandwich or watch a movie. I would guess that the legit number of ppl that hit 80 without the aid of buying adena, using nostromo or similiar automated cheat, or being powerlvld by bot groups, would be less than 5% of any server population. People use these programs for their own reasons and I don't want to question anyone's morals here. What I would like to point out is that even the hardcore players found it necesary to use such methods to lvl up due to it being so boring or a lack of time to lvl on their own.

The main problem with the L2 lvling system is that you could NEVER catch up if you started just 6 months after game launch. I averaged 60 hours a week playing L2, and started a year after launch, and although I could finally get high enough to participate in the huge sieges, you were always behind those that started at launch by lvls or by gear. Some ppl will call this complaining. For me, if I can never catch up playing as much as I did, then how are new ppl supposed to join the game and enjoy it? And if no new ppl enjoy it, then the game remains viable only for those that launch a game. This game will be fun due to the high number of places you can siege and it's up 24 hours a day, so alot of back and forth will happen....unless ppl never get high enough to participate effectively. I'm not sure about you, but I want to pvp alot more than I want to grind and be the "uber" guy on the server.

I'm guessing some of the ppl that want the higher demands will either cheat their way to the top or will be selling adena to those that don't run their own bots. This is not a work of fiction, but fact based on their current game, L2. I hope they fix this. No macros means no automation, and less botting. I pray for this. In a game with little botting, then your lvls are truly earned and can be respected.

[Taerr]

Originally Posted by Kolossus

Edit: Azn, I just realized your avatar and signature is the SSB:M character from Fire Emblem. I can't remember his name.

Its Ike, THE best super smash bros brawl character at least the one i use the most often :P he's kinda slow tho...

on topic, Defiler, i don't feel Aion will have those problems you described in L2, simply because it seems like Aion is alot more leveling friendly, and with a cap at 50, i think it should be pretty easy to catch up level wise even if you start later on.

However, gear wise, i'm not so sure, and i'm not sure i get your point. If someone has been playing a long time, do they not deserve to have better gear because they've spent the time looking/aquiring it? i know alot of people will come out with the "level playing field argument" but i think oldies should get a LITTLE more than people who start later than them since they did spend more time. Then again, i guess if your skilled enough you'd really not care...

anyways, i see grinding as necessary but not plesant, but i'll definately do it when necessary :P

[Defiler]

The advantage for older characters is not a "deserved" position you have the best that noone can earn. Starting a game gives you advantages such as knowing where to go to get certain things or how best to siege/pvp/etc. Just because you play a game longer doesn't mean you deserve anything. In L2, you don't get gear drops as in other games to allow you to play competitely, you had to craft it. And finding those materials and recipes for a 60% CHANCE usually took a month of grinding to obtain. Fail that twice in a row and you just wasted two MONTHS of grind...that's more than 400 game hours and getting nothing back for that time.

So, then you have two choices. Hope you get lucky on crafts that take that long or buy in game adena. Giving up 200 hours for nothing is NOT FUN, and is prolly the sole reason that America and Europe buy so much adena from our Chinese bretheren. For me, I refuse to buy it and end up eating the time. If you think this is acceptable, consider this. Imagine going to work for 50 hours a week for a month and then on payday, your boss said, sorry, you lost the company lottery and you don't get paid this month. Would you be a little ****ed you put in that time for nothing? Now do it two months in a row!! Or one unlucky guy I knew that failed that craft 5 times!! That's a half year of gaming with no rewards...bad. And prolly the cause of why ppl cheat or buy in game currency. I don't like it, but I certainly understand it.

I'm hoping they are addressing this. With the inability to kill ppl in the lower lvl "safe zones", if they allow macros and botting, there will be NO way to remove them, even by pk. For now, I have a wait and see attitude on this.

[adrianus]

Originally Posted by Acyd

Take you aggression from the long work day out on a couple or couple hundred mobs =P

I prefer killing a hard boss in a good party with my mates or doing a raid or pk


Edit: Seen so many FFXI players here.. dono the game and actually i dont like the idea of the game anyway... but come all and try max lvl on Martial Heroes (lvl 160) and tell me how long it will take u.. 1 year? or 2 or more? cos so far every1 stopped lvling or playing after they got at 144, ultimate gear lvl, actually after 100 lvl is more for rich ppl.

Originally Posted by Requiem

I actually enjoy grinding.

An MMO without a grind isn't worth playing.

then don't w8 for aion.. u will see many ppl lvling only from quests at the same speed with ur grinding :P

[Shade]

As long as you have people to grind with, grinding is fun.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Shade

As long as you have people to grind with, grinding is fun.

Not that I disagree, but if the game mechanics blow (and there are games like that out there) grinding simply can't be fun, even with mates. Well, probably depends on yourself and your mates though. I wouldn't be able to grind through, for example, Archlord for longer than a week, cause it's simply boring as crap, mobs use one attack and it simply needs next to no player skill at all and the "endgame" or the features aren't worth it. I'd rather play a online mini-golf java-game or something...

[Calindor]

So is grinding taking a long time to level up or accomplish something, or is it repetitive play like giong to an area of mobs and killing them over and over for a few hours? Or is it both?

Personally I think it has to do with the style of play, and not the time it takes.

[adrianus]

well like i said I hate grinding and even when i grind i get so bored... and quit after a while .. u actually have only 1 goal .. getting the needed amount of exp in order 2 make the lvl or w.e. % from it... u calculate the exp getting from mobs and u know how much it takes 2 make the lvl or how many mobs 2 kill.

some actually enjoy this and see it really fun ................. well it's not if u ask me
some don't enjoy but have endless resources of grinding just because they want lvls

btw today almost fall at sleep while grinding in my actual game ... even if it was a daily event and won the battle for summoning mobs.. and got way much exp as normal grinding in game.. i had 2 exit the game and go sleep 1 hour =)) it's so mechanical.. that i no wonder why ppl invented bots

[Cynthe]

Originally Posted by Defiler

I know this thread is now HUGE but I think alot of ppl are forgetting that this company made L2.

No we're not, L2 grindage vs Aion has been discussed or used to be discussed to death... ^_~ I think people here have settled on leveling not being anywhere near L2's, at least not for the mid to high levels.