Who actually enjoys grinding?

[Kazuhiro]

Meh even without the word "grind" there is always the word "farm" involved in a MMORPG. Grinding is okay for me. I just hate farming for things. Since you have to be a certain level and/or full party just to farm certain mobs.

[Endrance]

The appellation 'Farming' is a part of the generic term 'Grinding'. It just sets different goal, but one of the same kind. Some people just want to level their character, not additionally farm for gear. But that subject doesn't make farming any less grind'ish.

[Kazuhiro]

That's true but WE need the same base of all MMO's PURE GRIND/CHINESE FARMERS. lol. I highly doubt that any mmo's will remove that concept if they did... god i hate fcuking reading quests. -.-

[Celebrity]

Take more time to lvl in a game doesn't mean you're taking it seriously, iit just means you have a lot of time to play, what also usualy means you're a school kid. Taking the game seriously is more often seen on people taht schedule raid, sieges, etc on time that everyone can play and manage things like guilds etc...

Pure grinding games sux, it's the point where Lineage 2 failed badly and lost lots of players, you can find people forever stuck on lvl 86-72, becouse grind become insane and the pvp allways take the xp down. Most of the people i know play l2 just for the pvp so...

[KatzuyAion]

I think reaching a new level should be Hard, as in I DO HOPE AND PRAY that it's impossible to reach max level in a week. Even if you play with a life support machine by your side!

Leveling should take its big chunk of time, half of your level should be gained trough quests/pvp/wtv and rest by grinding mobs.

In the furthest levels, assuming i'm playing 4 hours per day, it should take me 1 week of more to level up, i dont expect levels too be offered like in some MMORPGS currently in the market. It must be earned (however no need to exaggerate)

[Endrance]

Wont happen. It's been already stated that Aion will have a mid-leveling curve, like something inbetween casual and hardcore. It'll probably be possible to reach max level in about a month, maybe a bit longer when leveling 4 hours per day.

[Iceburgh]

The point of making a MMO is for many people to enjoy it. A mid level grind is the most acceptable of grinds because Casual and hardcore players can achive max level within a reasonable ammount of time. What this means for a business is more people can play the game. When more people can play more people will buy it. If there is enough content after max level people will continue playing it. As long as its reachable by a Majority amount of players over time. The hardcor players can get it done faster and earlier and reap the rewards of showing off their items or accessing new areas sooner. And Casual players can take heir time and work towards the end without being completely shut out because of leveling being an impossible task for someone with limited hours.

The reason WoW is successful is they created a way for Casuals and Hardcore players to co exist within the MMO WORLD and be able to enjoy the luxury of not wasting time to achieve victory.

Having a long grueling leveling curve turns off players. Some will never make it to max level and instead of continuing playing will move on meaning less people to play with. others will partake in power leveling services/bots thus ruinng the experience for new players as they will have less people to interact with.

There is a fine line between a game and a job. If you cant beat a game or complete at least the beginnin part which for an MMO leveling is just the begining of the game if done right. It wont do well at all. The less people that can enjoy your game the worse off it will be. Though if the leveling is to easy and end game isnt filled with stuff to do then people dont play as long.

So in order for an MMO to succeed on anywhere near WoWs level everything needs to be taken into consideration.

1. Leveling needs to take time but not be a task only possibe for people with no jobs and only school. Or people who work from home or can play while at work. It needs to be something anyone can do no matter the amount of time they have be it 30min a day to
15hrs a day. In 30min you should always be able to gain at least 10% of your level. Any slower and you push out alot of money from casual people who just like the game and want to enjoy it but dont have 50hrs a week to spend playing.

2. Endgame needs to have alot of options other than raiding. People should be able to farm/craft/raid/instance for gear of superior quality. It doesn have to be the best gear out.But it has to allow players to "gain" something to keep them playing. Once people have found out that theres nothing more they can do to gain anything for their character,they either start a new one or they quit. So giving many options to aquire gear/items insures that someone can choose to continue their chars progression in whatever fasion fits their playing experience.

3. Fun factor needs to be tuned through the entire game. When people are having fun they arent worried about the time they are wasting because the main point of the game is to have fun. Most people dislike doing something over and over. Everyone would get sick of repetition unless youre just weird and dont like change. You cant make everyone happy but the more you can the more who will play or the more they will bring to play.

4. Pricing options. There should be more than 1-2 ways to buy/purchase game time including game cards and online gift certificates and such. The easier it is to pay and keep playing the easier it is to get more people hooked. Granted in this day and age anyone needing a credit card can get one.

Anyways following these steps will net you a successful game. Ignoring them for feelings that you are better than someone cause you have more time to level is an absurd way to ever design a game. Anyone who feels they earned their levels in a game with a BAD level curve just imagine how much your being laughe at by the guy who botted or got power leveled. not only did they gain the same number of levels as you but they also didnt have to waste 2000hrs of their life doing it.

This isnt to say your 2000hrs is a waste but while you were "earning levels" they could have been "earning money". To each his own but im pretty sure that if you feel you need to seperate yourself from people due to how much time you can spend on a game then you may have some inferiority complexs that youre making up for with your need to feel important or better.

[Calindor]

I somewhat agree with that, but my only comment is why would someone who plays 30 minutes a day on average want to play a MMO, or better yet, if they do play a MMO why would they care that people who play longer get ahead faster when they are playing such a short period of time. If a game was designed so that people that play a short amount of time and get ahead, then the game would simply die down too fast.

Look at any game, the only way they keep going/succeding is by adding new content that takes time to do...WoW added arenas and more raids that you have to farm hardcore to accomplish (new gear) L2 keeps adding and endless grind that nobody will ever be able to reach unless they bot til their computer explodes....

Its the same for anything in life, you get out what you put in, sure skill will help, but that will just make you go faster than a less skilled person who plays the same amount of time....I'm not saying games need to be a ridiculous grind or anything, but there has to be something benificial to keep on doing or people will simply get bored...and its common sense, who ever plays more will get it done first.

[Iceburgh]

Originally Posted by Calindor

I somewhat agree with that, but my only comment is why would someone who plays 30 minutes a day on average want to play a MMO, or better yet, if they do play a MMO why would they care that people who play longer get ahead faster when they are playing such a short period of time. If a game was designed so that people that play a short amount of time and get ahead, then the game would simply die down too fast.

Look at any game, the only way they keep going/succeding is by adding new content that takes time to do...WoW added arenas and more raids that you have to farm hardcore to accomplish (new gear) L2 keeps adding and endless grind that nobody will ever be able to reach unless they bot til their computer explodes....

Its the same for anything in life, you get out what you put in, sure skill will help, but that will just make you go faster than a less skilled person who plays the same amount of time....I'm not saying games need to be a ridiculous grind or anything, but there has to be something benificial to keep on doing or people will simply get bored...and its common sense, who ever plays more will get it done first.

I suggested 30min because that tends to be the min amount of time that you can accomplish something worthwhile in an MMO setting. with a group you can posibly get an instance done. in WoW you can get Arena matchs or BGs in. Maybe not a raid but you stll can work towards maxing a character out. Games with endless grinds would be a turn off to someone i they cant even make max level to start the endless grind to begin with. In real life you can drive 30min or even read a few chapters in a book or workout. In the end there is no reason that a game should be set up in a way that you cant accomplish an important task in 30min be it leveling or farming mats to craft with or PvP towards a new item.

As my job is being a truck driver I can have anywhere from 30min to 10hrs+ of play time on any given day. Some weeks I can end up with 30min a day from being tired or bad scheduling others i can have 2-3hrs and get into a raid. The fact is if a company wants to maximize profits they need to appeal to as many people as they can. Cutting people out due to a Time factor is just not a smart business plan at all.And for anyone who feels they should get more cause they can play more. That makes no sense at all if you want to compare it to RL even though its a game.

Person A-Works in an office answering phones getting paid 15/hr due to having a degree.

Person B-Works at mcdonalds slaving behind a hot stove and oven cooking. Making 5/hr

Person B clearly works harder than person A so according to your logic person B should be paid more for doing more work.

But hey the world and games dont always work how we want and this is why some people fail and some succeed. But the person/company that maximizes their market will always succeed. If they deliver a quality product that the customer works and doesnt appeal only to a niche group. Though if youre going to make a game for select people then dont expect to make the maximum amount of money. I dont see this problem with Aion though. I just dont see where people can try to logically equate time and difficulty to being deserving of more.

[Calindor]

I'm sorry but that analogy for office/mcdonalds is horrible, and it doesnt even make sense because it is 2 different jobs...its like playing L2 = mcdonalds, you only get $5 per hour, playing WoW is like the office, its $15 per hour, if someone plays the same time in WoW they accomplish more because its faster.

[Iceburgh]

Originally Posted by Calindor

I'm sorry but that analogy for office/mcdonalds is horrible, and it doesnt even make sense because it is 2 different jobs...its like playing L2 = mcdonalds, you only get $5 per hour, playing WoW is like the office, its $15 per hour, if someone plays the same time in WoW they accomplish more because its faster.

The analogy is to show that people do in fact get more for less and in the end tend to enjoy themselves more. Someone isnt going to quit working in the office to work at mcdonalds because they want feel they "earned" their money.

Sorry im on a cell phone so some things dont come out clear.

[pyrocrazy]

Originally Posted by Iceburgh

Sorry im on a cell phone so some things dont come out clear.

and you being on a cell phone completely excuses your horrible analogy how?

[Iceburgh]

Originally Posted by pyrocrazy

and you being on a cell phone completely excuses your horrible analogy how?

Its not horrible youre only thinking on a one track setting as to where the people work and not taking it as a broader subject of working for pay.

Office Work for x pay
Kitchen work for X pay

basically

Office= Simple Grind
Kitchen= HArd grind.

Granted this isnt 100% true but I gave a description of what each person is doing to further describe the point I was making. 1 person answering a phone being paid more than someone slaving behind a stove technically working harder physically as that is what level grinds can be related to. In the end person A exerted X amount of energy but gained more than person B who exerted more energy. They work the same amount of time but person A still makes more than Person B regardless of how much more energy is exerted during the time period.

In WoW since the grind is shorter someone will accomplish more than someone in Lineage just due to how the grind is set up even if they played for the same amount of time. In the end who do you think will end up profiting the most regardless of time spent?

[pyrocrazy]

You know that grind isnt everything...
using your crap analogy ill say this


the kitchen man might have made 1000 burgers and 1000 fries in that time while gaining less money he did more during that same time, the office man may have only answered 1 phone call...

so the kitchen man accomplished more...he just received less for it...

[Iceburgh]

Originally Posted by pyrocrazy

You know that grind isnt everything...
using your crap analogy ill say this


the kitchen man might have made 1000 burgers and 1000 fries in that time while gaining less money he did more during that same time, the office man may have only answered 1 phone call...

so the kitchen man accomplished more...he just received less for it...

Exactly my point I was making. People are in here talking about how they deserve more because they had to work harder or have worked harder than someone else. When it doesnt always work out that way. So I wonder where people get this feeling of entitlement due to time/difficulty.