PvP No skills?

[Datippa]

I was wondering how many people think pvp or mmorpg should have any skilll involve? or you feel mmorpg shouldn't have skills since its mmorpg.

The reason for this is in the thread "what I expect from PvP mmorpg" people are saying this isn't counter strike or fps there should be no skills.

I for one would like a PvP mmorpg to have skill involve instead of just picking my class and clicking buttons.

[Hellriser]

This is a very hard job for every MMORPG developer. On FPSs, if you know the map well and you have good reactions, you rule. In MMOs the only way to insert the "skill involving" is working with the skills of the characters... like lightning works better if it rains or the target is in water... fire the opposite... or some skill is better agains some class than another... but after some "testing", lots of tutorials will get on the net..so all will get a cliche: if I PvP with that class I have to use that skill and that skill...
The only noticeable skills of a MMO players can be shown on mass PvP, sieges... anyway.. collective work

[Midgarsormr]

Skills, and no mods, except for light ones like enhanced maps/compasses, etc.

[Kyero]

Skills.

people are saying this isn't counter strike or fps there should be no skills.

I kind of feel like you misunderstood what they were saying.

I for one would like a PvP mmorpg to have skill involve instead of just picking my class and clicking buttons.

Knowing what buttons to click and when is the "skill" part of MMO's. More...knowledge than reflexes, I guess? FPS games do take a whole lot more skill though.

Edit: You seem to want everything perfectly balanced. Unfortunately, this isn't exactly possible in a MMORPG, simply because it destroys class difference/originality. I'd suggest a FPS game is this is what you have in mind.
-Kyero

[Hellriser]

Originally Posted by Kyero

Knowing what buttons to click and when is the "skill" part of MMO's.
-Kyero

Uhmm... when mob is targeted click 1,2,3,4... and usually click the skills when they cooled down. No ub3r skill in this IMO.

[AznKenshin]

This is a great thread, however there is one major flaw.

Everyone is entitled to opinions, but in mine, FPS games and MMO games should not be compared whatsoever. Of course, it's no reason to condone "skill-less" MMOs, but nevertheless, they're two entirely different genres.

Different controls, different tactics, different strategies, the list goes on.

[Kyero]

Originally Posted by Hellriser

Uhmm... when mob is targeted click 1,2,3,4... and usually click the skills when they cooled down. No ub3r skill in this IMO.

I meant PvP. The thing this thread was about.
And, I don't recall saying it takes "ub3r" skills. I said that's the "skill" part of MMORPG's, and that it'll be inferior to that of FPS games without severely destroying the differences between classes.

[Kattrina]

Maybe I'm just an on the fence kind of guy, but I consider a lot of playing ranged when I play MMOs. I play with my family, and like, my sister likes MMOs for the social aspect more than the fighting. I think it's important for a developer to find an in between. Make combat simple enough for casual, more social people to handle without getting frustrated, but also complex enough for hardcore gameplay people to handle without getting bored. I think it should take skills, but I think it shouldn't be frustrating for any player trying to do it.

[Hellriser]

Originally Posted by Kyero

I meant PvP. The thing this thread was about.
And, I don't recall saying it takes "ub3r" skills. I said that's the "skill" part of MMORPG's, and that it'll be inferior to that of FPS games without severely destroying the differences between classes.

MMORPGs and FPSs are 2 different genres and shouldn't be compared in any way. Especially the skill requirement level.
And what I said I think it still stands in PvP(But ONLY in 1 vs. 1): Skill, HP Pot, Skill, Skill, Critical Hit, HP Pot, Skill, GG.
If you aren't a newbie, you should do fine As for mass PvP...there's where the good players can be found.
Edit: And I absolutely agree with Kattrina.

[Kyero]

Originally Posted by Hellriser

MMORPGs and FPSs are 2 different genres and shouldn't be compared in any way.

Meh, the only reason I compared(contrasted?) the two was to show how Dat's plan to make it perfectly balanced like a FPS game wouldn't work.

[Datippa]

Not really. How does having a multiple counter (depending on what the enemy uses you'll use the correct counter spell/skill) destroy class difference and originality? Fighting games would be the thing to think of when it comes to PvP in mmorpg. In street fighter, Killer instance etc they all have counters and blocks but yet each character is still plays different and original.

Dhalsim (Ranger) has weak attack but can be deadly from range. Zangief (tank) has no range attack but in close combat can be deadly. They both have counters to neutralize the opponent. but does this take away from their playing style or originality?

I'm not saying give everyone the same spells, armor, range and stats as balance. I'm saying look at fighting game as reference. U can still be original (class) but still be able to defend yourself. Try to think outside the box. I know its a mmorpg but we can implement other ideas from other genre of games into mmorpg. limiting yourself is the worst thing to do not just in game but in life.

please stop referring to FPS game.

[Kyero]

Originally Posted by Datippa

Not really. How does having a multiple counter (depending on what the enemy uses you'll use the correct counterspell/skill) destroy class difference and originality?

Because..they end up being the same skills, but with a different look/name?

Unless, perhaps, you mean each class has different skills to counter the skills of another class? But..that leads me back to think of it as Rock/Paper/Scissors - something, if I recall correctly, you were against.

Dhalsim (Ranger) has weak attack but can be deadly from range. Zangief (tank) has no range attack but in close combat can be deadly. They both have counters to neutralize the opponent. but does this take away from their playing style or originality?

Erm, don't MMO's already work like this? WoW did, atleast.

I'm not saying give everyone the same spells, armor, range and stats. I'm saying look at fighting game as reference. U can still be original (class) but still be able to defend yourself. Try to think outside the box. I know its a mmorpg but we can implement other ideas from other genre of games into mmorpg. limiting yourself is the worst thing to do.

Every class has a way to defend itself already; or, atleast, they do in other MMO's. They just have different ways of going about it.

Though...I wouldn't mind more skills/interrupts so we're all not just mashing 1,2,3 ect.

Note on Armor- Unfortunately, it'll be hard to kill off any imbalance regarding gear. Players are always looking for ways to improve their character further...and gear just happens to be the easiest thing to implement for such a purpose. (Guild Wars was a CORPG, not a MMO.)

stupid when people think they're a skilled player but really its the gear that won the match for them.

-Kyero

[Datippa]

Kyero I'm not talking about armor, stats, weapon or GW. But what u said "Though...I wouldn't mind more skills/interrupts so we're all not just mashing 1,2,3 ect." is what I mean by counter. Interrupting enemy that is trying to cast a big spell at us or kite, root us to dead. but not just 1 button that counter all spells and skills. U need to know what spell the enemy is casting and counter (interrupt it) by using the correct counter spell / skill.

[Endrance]

Casting and being able to interrupt that cast is already one thing that rarely takes place in any MMO (it did in FFXI). Also, countering one spell doesn't actually only mean to interrupt it. If different spells have a different range, you could try to run away as soon as you see it casted... use a invisible Skill having a high cooldown to make it detarget you or as a Templar for example use a Shield Bash or something. Though if a MMORPG is pretty much based on PvP and you still want it to have many Skills and be complex, and also a Party Game where everyone has to know their job to succeed, it's pretty hard to balance it (though not impossible). I have yet to see this kind of perfect game and I hope to see that kind of system being implemented in Aion. I really hate button-smashers that don't demand anything from someone (and could easily be played by a stupid bot) with a passion.

[Datippa]

because FFXI was one of the best PvE mmorpg EVERY!