Females and the reverse armor rule

[Celestin]

Originally Posted by Yame

I'm not gonna argue this anymore because really, it's a circular argument, and some of you will never think it's sexist, and will never think that the "realism" argument is valid, or will keep insisting that sex sells and therefore this should stay. You'll either agree with me or you won't, I invited everybody to share their opinions and here we are, what's so silly about that?

I didn't say you were wrong, I simply refuse to endorse ignorance and double standards.

If you think that armour in the game is unrealistic because it's visually nonprotective, that's fine. I mean, you are perfectly right. But we are talking realism here. So with realism in mind, while wearing plate armour, you shouldn't be able to move as fast or as far as somebody in cloth armour, not to even get into the actual design of armour.

You can argue it's unrealistic if you want, but be prepared to argue for realism in it's entirety, and not just what you want. Let's not forget that the entire world is a fantasy world and therefore, there could be perfectly logical fantasy reasons why visually less protective armour is fully protective.

And for the other stuff, well, I have to go back to work anyway. Maybe some other time.

[Yame]

Originally Posted by Howling

lol... We got owned

My screens were Orcs i think

But it just shows that male chars are not immune to nudity

Well I don't think anybody should be immune to nudity, especially in the beginning, but it's nice to acquire cooler and cooler looking armor the harder you work on a game. Those sets to me, they don't look cool. They look ridiculous!

This is a matter of taste, of course. Which gets us to the point a lot of people were making earlier, that there should be enough choice in an MMO of what your armor looks like. I was wondering exactly what everybody meant by "choice." Do you mean that we should be able to pick the graphics, like maybe once you try to equip an item it gives you a skimpy and an unskimpy version and you can pick? Or do you just mean that there should be enough armor sets of different styles in the game? I think that the latter makes a lot of sense and is the ideal, but the problem with that is that I pick what I wear by stats... I'm never gonna wear an armor set (outside maybe of the major city of my faction) just because it looks good. I will wear whatever gives me the stats that I want, so that if the set with the best stats that I have or that I can get looks distasteful to me, I will wear it anyway. So I suppose that having "choice" would mean having a high amount of armor sets available that have good stats but with looks stylized differently?

Once again, with Aion we will get to switch the graphics of a new armor piece for something else we already had, and this is some very good "choice" right there. But we still should expect the devs to do a good job with armor design, because we don't know the limitations of this feature (or do we?). We already know that we can use graphics of an item that we have (and the item, I believe, will subsequently disappear), so it's not like we can pick any item in the game. But how many times can we use that same graphic? Say, I'm wearing Robe A and I really like it. I get an ugly but better Robe B, so I switch the graphics so that now I have a Robe B looking like Robe A. Then I get a Robe C which is even better, but still ugly. I want to keep my Robe A graphics, but Robe A disappeared in the first process, so if I use Robe B to switch the graphics, will I get Robe A or Robe B graphics on Robe C? Also, would this cost money, and how much? Is there a limit to how many pieces you can do this to at once?
These are just rhetorical questions. I don't expect answers (though if you know, do answer), I'm just making the point that there is the possibility of limitations, in which case the demand for tasteful armor is still a valid one.

Originally Posted by Celestin

I didn't say you were wrong, I simply refuse to endorse ignorance and double standards.

If you think that armour in the game is unrealistic because it's visually nonprotective, that's fine. I mean, you are perfectly right. But we are talking realism here. So with realism in mind, while wearing plate armour, you shouldn't be able to move as fast or as far as somebody in cloth armour, not to even get into the actual design of armour.

You can argue it's unrealistic if you want, but be prepared to argue for realism in it's entirety, and not just what you want. Let's not forget that the entire world is a fantasy world and therefore, there could be perfectly logical fantasy reasons why visually less protective armour is fully protective.

And for the other stuff, well, I have to go back to work anyway. Maybe some other time.

No, we will never have realism in its entirety, it's a fantasy game. But like I said there is a basis in reality. To take your plate example, sure classes in plate don't literally actually run slower than others, but they tend to be less agile. Assassins--who don't wear plate--may have a sprint. They don't wear bulky armor so they can hide. Stuff like that... so it's a matter of opinion how far you think this should go.

[Ipmia]

Originally Posted by Yame

Where is the victim attitude here? I am giving my opinion about something that bothers me in some games which I am hoping Aion will not follow. I said a thousand times I don't feel offended or objectified, I simply am not usually attracted to games that do that.

I'm not the one making a big deal about this. I actually never even gave this issue any thought at all (because I never played any MMOs like that) until very recently when I was looking at a thread on a different forum about which sex people choose to play, and I noticed that there were a fair share of girls who choose to play male characters solely due to this armor issue. Of course not all girls have a problem with this, some might even like it. A lot of guys might like it, too. But I saw an issue when I read that post, and when I put myself in those girls' positions I realized that I fully agreed with them.

So you can disagree, but realize that for some people out there this is a problem, and respect that opinion.

I'm not gonna argue this anymore because really, it's a circular argument, and some of you will never think it's sexist, and will never think that the "realism" argument is valid, or will keep insisting that sex sells and therefore this should stay. You'll either agree with me or you won't, I invited everybody to share their opinions and here we are, what's so silly about that?

It seems though that some of you don't really get what I have a problem with, and it's like all of a sudden I have a problem with nudity or with being less than fully covered in a game, period. This is not what I mean, so let me be ultra-specific now. As newbies, we all start with only a couple pieces of armor, that makes perfect sense. We can all start naked and I'd be perfectly fine with that. By the time we are at maximum level though, all our armor slots should be filled. Then we get better and better armor sets, and they will tend to look cooler, more elaborate. There may be stylistic differences between races and classes which are perfectly acceptable, and perhaps even stylistic differences between genders within those races and classes, which are acceptable as well. What wouldn't be acceptable to me though, would be for armor sets to consistently cover less as they level up, and in a distasteful and overtly sexual manner... perhaps looking something like this [spoiler][/spoiler], for females only, while the same isn't happening to male armor sets.

you not being very objective there yame. this screenshot is a char naked one , mean she not wearring any armor. if you take a screenshot of a naked human female in WoW she ll be wearring her panties... wich kinda of make sence to me

While i understand that l2 DE armors are often close to cross the line it never does and ( that is jsut my opinion ) suits well the perverse nature of the drow itself.

[Yame]

Originally Posted by Ipmia

you not being very objective there yame. this screenshot is a char naked one , mean she not wearring any armor. if you take a screenshot of a naked human female in WoW she ll be wearring her panties... wich kinda of make sence to me

While i understand that l2 DE armors are often close to cross the line it never does and ( that is jsut my opinion ) suits well the perverse nature of the drow itself.

I was just trying to exemplify what I don't want an epic set to look like for my female character. I don't know what the context of that screenshot was in L2.

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by Celestin

And the potential to detract from the player base... well, you'll have to review the industry in general to address that one. The truth of the matter is, despite the new found prominence of girl gamers, male still dominate the market, especially for "serious" games ( so no Guitar Hero ). MMOs, as a genre, have traditionally been one of most inaccessible for girls, and only with WoW have MMOs risen onto the general stage, so it's still safe to consider MMOs as a "serious" game. The market for these "serious" games caters to its player base which is, by the vast majority, male. The amount of customers you would lose because they find the content sexist and offensive is far less than the amount you could gain.

However, it is cited that the sexism found in "serious" games is a discouraging factor for many female gamers and the industry is working to repair this, but it's still a very slow process. Ye olde style RPGs are still the only games you can find where females will take dominating roles. Elsewhere, they are still generally delegated to bystanders or objects to be rescued. Seriously, list me some major female characters in non-RPG games. There was Sarah Kerrigan... Jaina Proudmoore. But for every female you name, I can probably name four males ( Jim Raynor, Uther Lightbringer ). Little aesthetic things are not the thing you want to target as your fix.

There is no point in looking back at history. What we're dealing with is a yet-to-be-released game. Developers CAN design the game the way they want. Look at GW. There was no precedence, it was a completely new idea and it was rewarded with financial success. Change will not happen if everyone just blame society and stop addressing the problem. The success of WoW also proved that you don't need to objectify any gender to achieve excellence in the industry. In fact, I'd argue that it is one of the contributing factors to their success, since they do tap into such a huge market, that was previously unknown to MMO developers. When people were thinking a million of subscribers of Lineage was what MMORPGs were capable of, WoW comes in and set the bars 5 times higher.

Originally Posted by Ipmia

you not being very objective there yame. this screenshot is a char naked one , mean she not wearring any armor. if you take a screenshot of a naked human female in WoW she ll be wearring her panties... wich kinda of make sence to me

While i understand that l2 DE armors are often close to cross the line it never does and ( that is jsut my opinion ) suits well the perverse nature of the drow itself.

That one is starter armor, and I'd mention that the same armor, when worn by a DE male, only shows his head and his arm... When L2 characters remove all their armors, they'll be in underwear. In the case of DE female, it's a bikini set.

[Kaldur]

I just don't get it. What does all this babble in the last few pages has to do with Aion. We have seen videos and screenshots showing gear on female characters, and they seem to be perfectly covered according to their jobs. The only female character that I have seen with pretty light clothes are the Assassins, but I believe it fits them properly.

[lyankyj]

I explain this reverse armor thingie to myself this way:

1. Its a magical world.
2. Armors not only give defense, but they also power up other attributes, stats, since they are enchanted, magical items.

So the body-covering part is absolutely relevant, since all the damage absorbtion can be explained: coz its magic.
The armor is magical, it forms a magical shield around the character, despite of its shape, its still protecting the wearer.

No matter what shape the armourer creates for them, they are still enchanted, magical stuffs!

And that is more than enough for me. Its logical - in the sense of fantasy.

[SoraNashimi]

Originally Posted by Yame

It looks like you didn't even read the post you're criticizing. My post was repetitive because it was a reply to someone asking what the deep down issue was. As I said before even mentioning these issues, they had already been mentioned throughout the post, I was just summing them up again.
Also, I already said it's probably not game-breaking if it even happens in Aion (which I'm not even sure about yet), because of the customization of armor graphics. So why do you insist on acting like I'm saying it's the end of the world?

Regarding your "answers," I don't think that they solve the issue. What do fantasy world rules have to do with skimpy armor applying only to females? And how can you say the reverse armor rule when it applies only to females is not sexist? You'll have to go a little beyond one sentence to tell me how these opinions make sense.

Yes I understand that, but I was just simply Restating the solutions that already have been made! Because those 4 points you pointed out keep showing up though they have been answered! You know why? Because not everyone is going to read through all 12 pages to find these things, unless they have been keeping up with this thread from the start like I have.

The reason I don't think its sexist is because they give you choices thanks to the Armor Customization, as stated many times. Also like howling said, the makeup of a female body compared to a guys are different.

Originally Posted by Howling
My thoughts exactly, the female body is completely different to a males.. It's designed for more subtle movement and less power - thus the armour should accomodate for the fact that females bend and move differently, so less armour in key areas means more movement. Even a Gladiator female, the physically strong class, would struggle to equal a male gladiator in power if they were both put in the same armour - the female needs to be more flexible and apply her power more effectively to achieve the same results - it's just the difference between the sexes.

Originally Posted by Yami
This is a matter of taste, of course. Which gets us to the point a lot of people were making earlier, that there should be enough choice in an MMO of what your armor looks like. I was wondering exactly what everybody meant by "choice." Do you mean that we should be able to pick the graphics, like maybe once you try to equip an item it gives you a skimpy and an unskimpy version and you can pick? Or do you just mean that there should be enough armor sets of different styles in the game? I think that the latter makes a lot of sense and is the ideal, but the problem with that is that I pick what I wear by stats... I'm never gonna wear an armor set (outside maybe of the major city of my faction) just because it looks good. I will wear whatever gives me the stats that I want, so that if the set with the best stats that I have or that I can get looks distasteful to me, I will wear it anyway. So I suppose that having "choice" would mean having a high amount of armor sets available that have good stats but with looks stylized differently?

Once again, with Aion we will get to switch the graphics of a new armor piece for something else we already had, and this is some very good "choice" right there. But we still should expect the devs to do a good job with armor design, because we don't know the limitations of this feature (or do we?). We already know that we can use graphics of an item that we have (and the item, I believe, will subsequently disappear), so it's not like we can pick any item in the game. But how many times can we use that same graphic? Say, I'm wearing Robe A and I really like it. I get an ugly but better Robe B, so I switch the graphics so that now I have a Robe B looking like Robe A. Then I get a Robe C which is even better, but still ugly. I want to keep my Robe A graphics, but Robe A disappeared in the first process, so if I use Robe B to switch the graphics, will I get Robe A or Robe B graphics on Robe C? Also, would this cost money, and how much? Is there a limit to how many pieces you can do this to at once?
These are just rhetorical questions. I don't expect answers (though if you know, do answer), I'm just making the point that there is the possibility of limitations, in which case the demand for tasteful armor is still a valid one.

Well what was ment by choices that me and others kept bringing up is that, "that there should be enough armor sets of different styles in the game", so that If you have a so called Skimpy armor, Swap the Looks with the another piece of armor that isn't so Skimpy to you... While still keeping the stats of the Greater item! We weren't exactly so much thinking on this...
"like maybe once you try to equip an item it gives you a skimpy and an unskimpy version"

But about that Robe A, B, to C thing, well since you took the looks of Robe A and changed it with the stats of the Greater Item B, then the new item would just a mix of the two, the Higher stats and Same look of A so I'm pretty sure that you'd be able to use the same Skin as Robe A because thats the one you used for the new item, so the Skin of Robe A is still there. Just that the looks of Robe B and Stats of Robe are gone is all

Like I thought, this thread got another 5 pages or almost, over the night, and the day isn't even over yet, well atleast not for me. It's becoming a pain keeping up with it all =(

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by Kaldur

I just don't get it. What does all this babble in the last few pages has to do with Aion. We have seen videos and screenshots showing gear on female characters, and they seem to be perfectly covered according to their jobs. The only female character that I have seen with pretty light clothes are the Assassins, but I believe it fits them properly.

That's because the high end armors aren't in the game yet. So I'd say it's the best time for threads like this so the devs know what the customers want, and make adjustments before releasing them.

[Amanda Hugnkiss]

Amazon people, Amazons.

Case Closed.

[Eyrie]

Baw at censoring the greatest on topic youtube post in this thread.. It should really be on the front page to show people why less clothing clearly = stronger.

Anyway......

......You are serious of these 'skimpy' clothes affecting badly to games..? Well um...... Ok.... *refers to above poster* Amazons. Case closed.

[Yame]

Originally Posted by lyankyj

I explain this reverse armor thingie to myself this way:

1. Its a magical world.
2. Armors not only give defense, but they also power up other attributes, stats, since they are enchanted, magical items.

So the body-covering part is absolutely relevant, since all the damage absorbtion can be explained: coz its magic.
The armor is magical, it forms a magical shield around the character, despite of its shape, its still protecting the wearer.

No matter what shape the armourer creates for them, they are still enchanted, magical stuffs!

And that is more than enough for me. Its logical - in the sense of fantasy.

Ok, but if it's all magic and no realism then what's the point for different materials? What's the point of plate vs. chain vs. leather vs. cloth? If we're all just protected by magic then there's no need for that.

So, sure this whole thing can be explained with "magic," but as I've been saying there's also a basis in reality. It's a matter of personal opinion how far you can go with changing these "rules" and still get away with it by saying it's magic and fantasy and whatnot. I mean, technically can't we all just wear dildos for melee weapons and say that it's the magic that makes them able to cut through the enemy's body?



And the point of posting this here and now is exactly as Heinel stated.

[lyankyj]

Originally Posted by Yame

Ok, but if it's all magic and no realism then what's the point for different materials? What's the point of plate vs. chain vs. leather vs. cloth? If we're all just protected by magic then there's no need for that.

All armors are sort of a magic shields, force fields, surrounding the character (since they were created that way)

The strength of that "shield" however depends on the quality of the armor (cloth/plate,etc).


Magic only explains why high-level armors can look like bikinis and why armors give other stats beside protection.