Soulshots in Aion

[Fleiva]

Originally Posted by Heinel

Yeah, I posted a suggestion, too bad it's not "something better"

As for the why wouldn't you use them? The question answered itself for many, I can see how it's not as apparent for people who didn't come from PvP games. In PvP games, the most important aspect of the game is balance. Balance is a very general term but in one sentence, balance entails that people fight on equal footing, regardless of choice.

Emphasis is put on choice, because not everyone plays the same way. You see people complaining so and so class is underpowered, blah blah. Or Some other class is overpowered, blah blah. Obviously, people who play underpowered class could just reroll, but instead they want inter-class balance, because it is choice.

Balance entails that all choice are as valid as others, and in the case of soulshot and no soulshot, the golden rule is broken.

Here we go again, abstract arguments.

Ok, fine, Ill play your game, Ill use your logic:

They should eliminate armors, and weapons, cause I might choose not to use them and then the "golden rule" would be broken.

Seriously, Im already seeing you don't want to admit you can't counter my logic in this issue. There's no possible choice in something that improves your dps in competitive terms, period.

PS: Played Ulitma online and then moved to Lineage II, yeah, i come from carebear non competitive games...

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by Fleiva

Here we go again, abstract arguments.

Ok, fine, Ill play your game, Ill use your logic:

They should eliminate armors, and weapons, cause I might choose not to use them and then the "golden rule" would be broken.

Seriously, Im already seeing you don't want to admit you can't counter my logic in this issue. There's no possible choice in something that improves your dps in competitive terms, period.

PS: Played Ulitma online and then moved to Lineage II, yeah, i come from carebear non competitive games...

No, the accusation is uncalled for.

I presented realistic examples to illustrate and back up my argument, you however, did not.

I'm not a fan of theory-craft either. That's why application counts, always.

[Fleiva]

"I might choose not to use soulshots knowing they improve my damage"

isn't the same as:

"I might choose not to use weapons, knowing they improve my damage"

Golden rule, yes.

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by Fleiva

"I might choose not to use soulshots knowing they improve my damage"

isn't it the same as:

"I might choose not to use weapons, knowing they improve my damage"

Realistic example there, for real.

I can see two fallacy in this comparison:

1) In a fantasy game it is usually a given that there's some sort of weapon that you'll use in combat, it is not necessary for the game to work, it was introduced for immersion. Soulshots on the other hand, does not fulfill that role.

Counter example: IIRC CoH and CoV does not have equipments. No weapons, no armor.

2) It looks like you're trying to proof the argument invalid by doing a preposition substitution. However, the prepositions substituted is not comparable, hence the comparison is not valid.

1: Weapon is not a consumable item.
2: The only opportunity cost involved in decisions about weapons are to choose the different kinds of weapons, whereas for soulshots, it is cost in exchange for higher performance.

[Frein]

Originally Posted by Fleiva

There are major flaws on that concept, I can notice these, at a first sight:

Who would buy those materials? Obviously, high level characters would have a hard time making money, so they would make alt chars in order to get them, so, here we go, those who have more alt chars will pay the biggest quantities for those materials, knowing that, people will always approach those potential clients.

You speak as if money doesn't circulate in the system, but that is wrong. Every time a new character is made, it would introduce a certain amount of money into the system and this money would slowly trickle to high level characters who have the goods to sell.

FFXI is a perfect example: Raw money drops scale up very poorly and become pocket change in no time. Nobody kills enemies for money drops, they hunt crafting materials. The only situation where hunting mobs for money would become viable would be if there somehow was immense deflation, but that too would eventually fix itself when people stop hunting for materials and start farming money.

And the second one, the money doesn't dissapear from the market, it will just change hands. People need to pay to NPCs in order to advoid inflation, and we all know already how inflation affects newcomers, don't we?

It's like you selectively ignore parts of my posts. Nowhere did I say gold sinks are unnecessary, in fact, I said the very opposite by suggesting alternate gold sinks. Sinks that provide a competitive advantage simply are not the way to go. The advantage will quickly become a perceived necessity that nobody wants to bother with but that they feel they must in order to stay competitive.

WoW raids are a great example: People would farm different kinds of potions for hours and hours so they could raid for less than half of the time it took them to gather the materials. Everybody hated it, but the encounters were tuned for buffed raids so it became more or less a necessity that everyone loathed. Blizzard eventually eased the problem by limiting potion buffs but it still exists. People still farm elixirs and flasks for their high-end raids and I guarantee nobody does it because they want to.

[Fleiva]

Originally Posted by Heinel

I can see two fallacy in this comparison:

1) In a fantasy game it is usually a given that there's some sort of weapon that you'll use in combat, it is not necessary for the game to work, it was introduced for immersion. Soulshots on the other hand, does not fulfill that role.

Counter example: IIRC CoH and CoV does not have equipments. No weapons, no armor.

2) It looks like you're trying to proof the argument invalid by doing a preposition substitution. However, the prepositions substituted is not comparable, hence the comparison is not valid.

1: Weapon is not a consumable item.
2: The only opportunity cost involved in decisions about weapons are to choose the different kinds of weapons, whereas for soulshots, it is cost in exchange for higher performance.

1: In a fantasy game, you can do whatever you please (this one was served on a silver plate) I never saw Mana IRL, haven't seen any complain about mana yet. Soulshots is just a fantasy concept, such as mana, giantic monsters and magic.

2: Both, soulshots and weapons, improve damage, weapons improve damage over naked hands, soulshots improve damage over no soulshots. I used that argument to counter your logic, which stated that soulshots break balance cause you can choose not to use them, that logic had an obvious flaw, since I can also choose not to use a weapon, but then I'd be nerfing myself, wouldn't I?

Cost in exchange for higher performance is a constant on MMORPGs for 20 years already, this one was easy also.

Originally Posted by Frein

You speak as if money doesn't circulate in the system, but that is wrong. Every time a new character is made, it would introduce a certain amount of money into the system and this money would slowly trickle to high level characters who have the goods to sell.

I didn't intend to sound like that at all, obviously, money circulates in the system, and obviously, high level characters must have something to spend money on.

Originally Posted by Frein

FFXI is a perfect example. Raw money drops scale up very poorly and become pocket change in no time. Nobody kills enemies for money drops, they hunt crafting materials. The only situation where hunting mobs for money would become viable would be if there somehow was immense deflation, but that too would eventually fix itself when people stop hunting for materials and start farming money.

There must be something to spend money on in FF.

Originally Posted by Frein

It's like you selectively ignore parts of my posts. Nowhere did I say gold sinks are unnecessary, in fact, I said the very opposite by suggesting alternate gold sinks. Sinks that provide a competitive advantage simply are not the way to go. The advantage will quickly become a perceived necessity that nobody wants to bother with but that they feel they must in order to stay competitive.

Whats so bad in it being perceived as a necesity? Aren't arrows a necesity for archers in every MMORPG? Isnt that a quite similar concept?

Originally Posted by Frein

Think of WoW raiding. People would farm different kinds of potions for hours and hours so they could raid for a couple hours. Everybody hated it, but the encounters were tuned for buffed raids so it became more or less a necessity that everyone loathed. Blizzard eventually eased the problem by limiting potion buffs but it still exists. People still farm elixirs and flasks for their high-end raids and I guarantee nobody does it because they want to.

Theres a difference, people hated that cause they would have to farm for hours and hours, if they sold potions in shop, they wouldn't complain about them. People don't like grinds and thats nothing new.

[Lennalf]

Soulshots don't contribute to the gaming experience. They just take all the fun out of grinding/farming. You have to watch half of everything you collect/earn get burned up so that you can go do it all over again! It's a tax on grinding!

For the sake of a smoother gameplay experience, I advocate removing any kind of "ammo" system altogether. It wastes a player's time, inventory, and patience. Ammo systems contribute nothing to gameplay, and are entirely tedious. After all, it's not like players are demanding realism. If we wanted realism, we could walk outside.

Imagine if Guild Wars had ammo (soulshots, arrows, etc). Ugh. Talk about ruining the fun. Dedicated PvP players would have even MORE reason to hate these stupid things.

I think the most important argument against soulshots is that they will immediately remind potential customers of Lineage II. If you are trying to attract Guild Wars or WoW players, you do NOT want players to think Aion is going to feel like Lineage II, because that game is infamous for being an endless grind-fest.

To sum it all up: There are better ways to waste our time!

Originally Posted by Frein

Nowhere did I say gold sinks are unnecessary, in fact, I said the very opposite by suggesting alternate gold sinks. Sinks that provide a competitive advantage simply are not the way to go. The advantage will quickly become a perceived necessity that nobody wants to bother with but that they feel they must in order to stay competitive.

I couldn't have put it better myself!

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by Fleiva

1: In a fantasy game, you can do whatever you please (this one was served on a silver plate) I never saw Mana IRL, haven't seen any complain about mana yet. Soulshots is just a fantasy concept, such as mana, giantic monsters and magic.

2: Both, soulshots and weapons, improve damage, weapons improve damage over naked hands, soulshots improve damage over no soulshots. I used that argument to counter your logic, which stated that soulshots break balance cause you can choose not to use them, that logic had an obvious flaw, since I can also choose not to use a weapon, but then I'd be nerfing myself, wouldn't I?

Cost in exchange for higher performance is a constant on MMORPGs for 20 years already, this one was easy also.

Oh look this one is even easier to tear apart XD.

In a fantasy game, you do whatever you please. So if you want to fight bare handed, play a game where the storyline is such that weapons are unnecessary, and you'll immerse yourself in weaponless bliss. I'll re-introduce the MMORPG that is CoH and CoV, since oops, you missed it again. (I'm willing to enlarge font or change color or whatever if emboldening is not enough.

And until weapons disappear on use, your second point of comparing weapon with soulshot is as laughable as anything in the chitchat forum.

[Fleiva]

Yes, people have prejudices over Soulshots, I consider it as the only fault on them.

And heinel, change weapons for whatever CoX uses in order to increase players abilities during combat, potions, power stones or whatever, there you go.

And yes, soulshots and weapons improve damage per second during combat, to be even a bit more generic, since my argument covers that aswell, both HP potions and weapons improve your performance on combat. Not using them cause of "choice" will only go against you.

Think you confused laughable with undeniable.

[Frein]

Originally Posted by Fleiva

There must be something to spend money on in FF.

Yes, they buy gear and crafting materials. I don't understand how this concept seems so difficult for you. Just because you get no money from the things you kill, doesn't automatically mean you won't have any. The money won't be stuck with low level characters, it will circulate and high level players will not have trouble obtaining and spending it.

As for true money sinks, they include travel and entry passes into special "dungeons" as well as taxes for selling items on auction houses. The AH tax is especially good because even though you're losing money, you gain more than you paid when the item sells, so it doesn't feel like you're paying just to keep up.

Whats so bad in it being perceived as a necesity? Aren't arrows a necesity for archers in every MMORPG? Isnt that a quite similar concept?

Arrows should be abolished from MMOs. They should not be a necessity and in fact aren't in many games. If you really insist on having a gold sink that only bow using classes suffer from, at least make arrows dirt cheap to buy from NPCs so obtaining them becomes natural rather than a miserable grind. Arrows shouldn't take any space in your inventory, either, because it doesn't contribute to the enjoyment of the player.

Theres a difference, people hated that cause they would have to farm for hours and hours, if they sold potions in shop, they wouldn't complain about them. People don't like grinds and thats nothing new.

If the potions were really cheap and sold in shops, it would only spread potion buffs to less critical aspects of the game. People would literally fill their inventories with this **** and even drink them in battlegrounds where death comes frequently and potion durations are cut short. It's unnecessary and cumbersome and doesn't add to the fun at all.

[Wesu]

Fleiva, Heinel is speaking from a competitive point of view. If you have ever played a team-based competitive game SERIOUSLY TO WIN at a high lvl of play, then you would realize that IF A TEAM DOES NOT CAPITALIZE ON EVERY ADVANTAGE AVAILABLE TO THEM, THEY WILL LOSE TO THE TEAMS THAT DO. If you dont use soulshots in pvp, then you WILL lose to the players that do. My only problem with using them in pvp, is that THEY BETTER HAVE AN AUTOCAST TOGGLE, or something so that i dont have to keep 1 finger on the stupid button like in L2 while im trying to actually play my char effectively.

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by Fleiva

Yes, people have prejudices over Soulshots, I consider it as the only fault on them.

And heinel, change weapons for whatever CoX uses in order to increase players abilities during combat, potions, power stones or whatever, there you go.

And yes, soulshots and weapons improve damage per second during combat, to be even a bit more generic, since my argument covers that aswell, both HP potions and weapons improve your performance on combat. Not using them cause of "choice" will only go against you.

Think you confused laughable with undeniable.

You're making less sense with each posting. I'm ESL, so I do not understand, care to explain? what's laughable and what's undeniable? and what are the links between the two? In a competitive game like GW, consumables of any form has no place in the pvp environment. The concept is just alien, and quite frankly a rather old one that deserve to be washed away like the notion of the Earth ever being flat, with stars circulating it.

And yes, regarding other consumables, my discussion encompasses all kinds of consumables, including arrows, as stated by poster above. It's just that the discussion would be clinky if we have to include everything in every single post.

I'm sorry that your babe, eh.. soulshots were to be posed as some unwanted step-child, but try not to take it personally okay?


Actually, I'm not that sorry.

[Typecast]

Originally Posted by Lennalf

Soulshots don't contribute to the gaming experience. They just take all the fun out of grinding/farming. You have to watch half of everything you collect/earn get burned up so that you can go do it all over again! It's a tax on grinding!

my god are your really THAT dumb?

There is such a thing as server balance and play time.

It doesnt matter if you spend your money on SS or not, it wont affect your money in the long run.

Game developers set the overall difficulty of a game, if you take away one part they will have to make up for it somewhere else.

let me explain.. If you have SS in a game you spend money on that, this value is calculated in all other elements of the game such as money drop rates, armor cost, weapon costs, item costs etc.

If you take the SS away you would have allot more money in the long run making all other items too cheap, messing up the game play and server balance.

What do the defs do? they adjust other parts of the game to make up for the extra money you have which can be higher prices for other things in the game.