Why not grind and questing?

[Saito]

Quests should be D & D style so a when someone asks you to help him/her that npc could go with you (depending on the quest of course) which would make for on the go dialogs and depending on your actions an quest may have different results.

IE, an npc gives you a quest to save someone captured by an ogre

1. Option one, you setup an trap and use it to kill the ogre everyone praises you for your quick thinking and you will be remembered as the guy that saved the girl from the ogre. But being the sneaky thief kind of guy while being praised people won't fully trust you they might come to you with additional quests but may not tell you everything. But an thief guide in the city might take an interest in you.

2. Option two, You distract the ogre to get him away from the girl and fight the ogre head-on using shield and sword to kill it, everyone will praise you for being an mighty warrior etc.. People in town will come to you with more quests and will tell you things they would normally wouldn't. But the thief guilds will avoid you and won't give you as many quests.

3. Option three, You charge right at the ogre and use your powerful magic to kill it but also killing the npc you where supposed to save in the blast. You will be hated and feared for killing the little girl and the fact you killed the ogre will be soon forgotten. People in town will fear and hate you it will harder to get quests and people won't want to talk to you at all. Of course taking the "evil" course should give some advantages as well. Guards an such will keep an close eye on you, thief guilds will work with you but they will also look out and won't tell you anything that might get them in to trouble. Otherwise your powerful magic might attract an wizards coven they might ask you to join them depending on the coven you join you could advance more in certain magic skills then in others.

4. Option four, You fight the ogre but find out it's a lot stronger then you and you have to flee, you return to town and will be known as a coward that run away from danger and you will turn in the laughingstock of the town people will give you very simple quests with stupid rewards and generally won't take you seriously. Most people won’t take you serious but you might get in to the circus! This could teach you various interesting skills.

That would be interesting that if you do a lot of quests in one town and finish them in the same style (i.e. thief style, heroic warrior style, ebil style or coward style) your reputation will precede you and people will know you from rumours that could give you an advantage or disadvantage with a certain crowd in a other city.

THAT is how questing should work. The quest you do and how you do them should shape your character and I don't mean with one or two "class change" quest all quest you do should shape you, learn you skills or get access to certain locations and groups.

[newpick]

Originally Posted by Lunais

Yeah but they're Korean.

and isnt this closed beta for them also, that means they hired the best and the brightest to test every aspects, how did they do that, level, level, level

[BahamutKaiser]

Originally Posted by Heinel

Something like that had been suggested for some play modes in GW as well. Though no one who have touched on the matter that I saw, was able to come up with a system where everyone involved is fairly awarded for their efforts.

That's just because Anet is not willing to change fundimental limitations and aspects which limit the games tactical integrity, there are more than enough solutions, I made plenty of them, but they do not participate with the community in finding solutions, they just dodge grief until enough people complain about an aspect and make even worse adjustments. If they were willing to accept solutions and try alternatives which would revolutionize the gameplay, it could be done rather easily, but they would rather stick with what they got and leave the vast majority of abilities, gameplay styles and sometimes even entire classes unresolved, either because it is easier, or their afraid of change.

I mean things like the defensive binding rituals, and the entire AoE damage and buff, and the shadowstep bordom could have all been resolved, just read through some of the archived discussion on the Wiki and you'll see some of my old work. There is a big difference between inability and unwillingness, and that's why I haven't touched GW in months. They don't even try to fix issues like the defensive binding rituals, they tap dance around it month after month and make worthless alterations elsewhere, they totally redesigned the Assassins role and function to be little more than an alternate option for an existing function instead of allowing it to be a totally new function. It is the attention to gameplay and dynamic interaction which makes or breaks a game for me, and I hope Aion will make appropriate strides to reach satisfying gameplay. This is also why I find additional classes useless, unless they can truely develope an entirely new role to the battlefield which offers unique play and functionality, than it's pointless, mild alterations belong in stigmas.

Anyway, I'm sorry for straying from topic. As for quests, even if all it does is offer some goal to fulfill which will gain you bonus exp, it is an improvement over dry grinding, but in quest or battle, grinding should be eliminated, and using things like unique battle situations, unique terrain exploration, and an interactive battle system will make it much more interesting to quest or "grind" for exp. One of the things I'm most afraid of is that character development will revolve around groups fighting single monsters in button mashing frenzy instead of tactical battles with grouped enemies and terrain recognition in the mix. If they can't graduate beyond the oldschool group on the single monster battles than it will be a serious problem. And to hell with foes which are buffed to face multiple foes in order to accomidate that kind of cheesy gameplay.

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

That's just because Anet is not willing to change fundimental limitations and aspects which limit the games tactical integrity, there are more than enough solutions, I made plenty of them, but they do not participate with the community in finding solutions, they just dodge grief until enough people complain about an aspect and make even worse adjustments. If they were willing to accept solutions and try alternatives which would revolutionize the gameplay, it could be done rather easily, but they would rather stick with what they got and leave the vast majority of abilities, gameplay styles and sometimes even entire classes unresolved, either because it is easier, or their afraid of change.

I mean things like the defensive binding rituals, and the entire AoE damage and buff, and the shadowstep bordom could have all been resolved, just read through some of the archived discussion on the Wiki and you'll see some of my old work. There is a big difference between inability and unwillingness, and that's why I haven't touched GW in months. They don't even try to fix issues like the defensive binding rituals, they tap dance around it month after month and make worthless alterations elsewhere, they totally redesigned the Assassins role and function to be little more than an alternate option for an existing function instead of allowing it to be a totally new function. It is the attention to gameplay and dynamic interaction which makes or breaks a game for me, and I hope Aion will make appropriate strides to reach satisfying gameplay. This is also why I find additional classes useless, unless they can truely develope an entirely new role to the battlefield which offers unique play and functionality, than it's pointless, mild alterations belong in stigmas.

Anyway, I'm sorry for straying from topic. As for quests, even if all it does is offer some goal to fulfill which will gain you bonus exp, it is an improvement over dry grinding, but in quest or battle, grinding should be eliminated, and using things like unique battle situations, unique terrain exploration, and an interactive battle system will make it much more interesting to quest or "grind" for exp. One of the things I'm most afraid of is that character development will revolve around groups fighting single monsters in button mashing frenzy instead of tactical battles with grouped enemies and terrain recognition in the mix. If they can't graduate beyond the oldschool group on the single monster battles than it will be a serious problem. And to hell with foes which are buffed to face multiple foes in order to accomidate that kind of cheesy gameplay.

Oh, I am mistakened. I thought you were talking about how exp is going to be distributed when tasks people do aren't traditional combat, not the combat itself. In my opinion the combat is really besides the point, regardless of how it's created it'll become a routine after a few weeks or so. AoC is the perfect example.

The thing with PvPvE, I hoped, is to allow people to contribute in different ways, different things than mowing through mob after mob. That is when the exp system becomes inadequate, and no one I spoke to could come up with a system that is significantly different from the traditional, limited ways; will award everyone, including supportive characters that don't necessarily need to ever deal with the enemy at all; and is not blatantly exploitable.

[LethalGT]

Questing =/= Grinding I hope in AION

Raiding/dungeons should yield much more EXP but they should require a group of atleast 5 players that have good gear to get the best reward.

[BahamutKaiser]

When you compare gameplay to other MMOs it is easy to assume that everything becomes routine, although any measurement of routine would suggest that more interactive combat systems are less routine than typical skill punching systems. But when you compare it to other gameplay types there are plenty of options which are not routine, you can call them routine if you like, but if you have to alternate your approach and tactics based on random or reactive actions taken by your opponent, than it is anything but routine. Widely experienced in FPS, RTS, Fighter and Flight games, MMOs can embrace this kind of gameplay if they innovate enough, it is just a goal they have to pursue, not an option that doesn't exist.

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

When you compare gameplay to other MMOs it is easy to assume that everything becomes routine, although any measurement of routine would suggest that more interactive combat systems are less routine than typical skill punching systems. But when you compare it to other gameplay types there are plenty of options which are not routine, you can call them routine if you like, but if you have to alternate your approach and tactics based on random or reactive actions taken by your opponent, than it is anything but routine. Widely experienced in FPS, RTS, Fighter and Flight games, MMOs can embrace this kind of gameplay if they innovate enough, it is just a goal they have to pursue, not an option that doesn't exist.

And once they attained that, they become a FPS, RTS, Fighter or Flight game. At least you can be sure they wouldn't have grind in that.

[BahamutKaiser]

You oviously overlooked the crossover, but hey, if progression isn't your bag of chips, everquest is still the same old retro MMO, go back to it, since this is already designed to an action and strategy MMO as well as RPG.

[LethalGT]

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

You oviously overlooked the crossover, but hey, if progression isn't your bag of chips, everquest is still the same old retro MMO, go back to it, since this is already designed to an action and strategy MMO as well as RPG.

You're obviously trying to make you're self look smarter and or more of a complete jackass, you're foolish and petty sarcasim isn't even required or hilarious in any way shape or form. Stick to actual productive chatter instead of mindless bull****, I'll censor it my self so I don't get this post deleted.

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

You oviously overlooked the crossover, but hey, if progression isn't your bag of chips, everquest is still the same old retro MMO, go back to it, since this is already designed to an action and strategy MMO as well as RPG.

It'd be pretty hard to overlook something I've already experienced first hand.

Though I happened across a gem in blogosphere for anyone interested:

Flow


*Not so subtle hint: NCsoft read this!!*

[BahamutKaiser]

Lethal obviously doesn't know who he's talking to, but since I'm not allowed to crush the opinions of other writers, I'll just have to add him to the list.

Experience yet not acknowledge, Heinel. Afterall, even most retro MMORPGs have transcended turn based actions and complete strategy. Many of them require character control and positioning of some degree, timed actions of some degree. Many modern MMOs don't even qualify as MMORPGs, because they have span much further into the action, or flight, or RTS genres that they are thurough crossovers and not primarily RPGs.

So you can misrespond by chiming that crossover elements make them a different game, and than make a useless remark that you have indeed experienced the crossover, but your logic is flawed.

According to you, Aion is now a flight game, because hey, we can fly frequently and will have to manage flight controls wile also engaging in an action paced attacking and movement. The problem with your response is "or". Fortunately we also have conjunctions like "and". Aion will be a game, primarily classified as an MMO, and it will have character progression, active combat, active movement, flight, and much more. Like grand theft auto, in order to create an involving and entertaining fantasy world experience, you have to include a myriad of gameplay aspects which can hardly be defined as a genre other than crossover. You can qualify it's theme, you can say it is primarily action and exploration, but it takes less time to say what genre isn't in the game than all that are, and the exact same thing applies to modern MMOs.

The worst kind of commentator is the one who makes remarks about what he does and doesn't like without recognizing what actually makes up the games that they enjoy. You've played games, but you misidentify what your actually playing, and make nonsensical responses, wile aimlessly concluding that you should know since you've participated. Everybody gets old one day, but you'll usually notice that it is the most senial and foolish elderlies who assume their "experience" has granted them some sort of perspective. But this chatter is pretty pointless at this stage, if you can't even recognize controdictions in your own responses, your never going to grasp what I've taught you.

[Heinel]

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Lethal obviously doesn't know who he's talking to, but since I'm not allowed to crush the opinions of other writers, I'll just have to add him to the list.

Experience yet not acknowledge, Heinel. Afterall, even most retro MMORPGs have transcended turn based actions and complete strategy. Many of them require character control and positioning of some degree, timed actions of some degree. Many modern MMOs don't even qualify as MMORPGs, because they have span much further into the action, or flight, or RTS genres that they are thurough crossovers and not primarily RPGs.

So you can misrespond by chiming that crossover elements make them a different game, and than make a useless remark that you have indeed experienced the crossover, but your logic is flawed.

According to you, Aion is now a flight game, because hey, we can fly frequently and will have to manage flight controls wile also engaging in an action paced attacking and movement. The problem with your response is "or". Fortunately we also have conjunctions like "and". Aion will be a game, primarily classified as an MMO, and it will have character progression, active combat, active movement, flight, and much more. Like grand theft auto, in order to create an involving and entertaining fantasy world experience, you have to include a myriad of gameplay aspects which can hardly be defined as a genre other than crossover. You can qualify it's theme, you can say it is primarily action and exploration, but it takes less time to say what genre isn't in the game than all that are, and the exact same thing applies to modern MMOs.

The worst kind of commentator is the one who makes remarks about what he does and doesn't like without recognizing what actually makes up the games that they enjoy. You've played games, but you misidentify what your actually playing, and make nonsensical responses, wile aimlessly concluding that you should know since you've participated. Everybody gets old one day, but you'll usually notice that it is the most senial and foolish elderlies who assume their "experience" has granted them some sort of perspective. But this chatter is pretty pointless at this stage, if you can't even recognize controdictions in your own responses, your never going to grasp what I've taught you.

Disclaimer: I've only read the beginning and the end of the post, and already find it a painstaking process. If you're just gonna flame, at least make it short so I actually will take it all in :P

On to the response:

I'm different from you. For you the combat is the be all end all, for me it isn't. Luckily, Flow covers all that. It is truly the best thing that can happen if the developers can implement it. And yes, I did experience the crossover, in the way you described. Just go back and login to GW, play a disrupt and shutdown mesmer. Why you'd think I like "old styled" MMO is beyond me too. I never remember stating that I liked those, ironically, EQ is a game that I never played.

[Wontuan]

Quests should require intellectual thinking, and not the typical "kill countless harpies until you've received 20 feathers". By intellectual I mean quests that integrate riddles, puzzles, brain teasers, and of course some hunting (but not entirely focused on hunting). But then again, if one person figures out a quest's puzzle, he or she can spoil the answer by writing guides or just spreading the solution, which I noticed was very common in WOW (remember the lvl 1-60 quest guides?). Would be cool if certain quests were only available depending on the server's state (eg. if Elyos are winning).