Will tradition continue?

[Otium]

Originally Posted by Zaeon

I'm guessing he means a skill that pretty much teleports you to the opponent in a not-so-magical way.

I understand your concerns about melees being kited. After all, people are saying that sorcerers and rangers can do that pretty fine. But from the vids i've seen, if you try to use your wings and fly near your opponent, you'll be near him in no time. Dunno if anyone tried this on beta...

[BahamutKaiser]

I'm sure Gladiator will be a lasting class, it is just a branch away from templar, I just hope templar has valuable damage to bring to the table so they're not cast only as tanks, and that their defensive skills are effective and fun to use.

[Calindor]

Originally Posted by Kattrina

I personally think gladiator might become the most frustrating class. When in a guild v guild siege that's got 100 people on each side, classes like Gladiators typically get sizzled pretty fast. They lead the charge, and are typically all gone by the time one side reaches the other.

anyone who targets the dd's first is going to get rolled

[Otium]

Originally Posted by Calindor

anyone who targets the dd's first is going to get rolled

I'm tired of saying that to Kattrina, but he loves to be a newbie.

[Frein]

Originally Posted by Otium

I understand your concerns about melees being kited. After all, people are saying that sorcerers and rangers can do that pretty fine. But from the vids i've seen, if you try to use your wings and fly near your opponent, you'll be near him in no time. Dunno if anyone tried this on beta...

To me it seems like flight speed is the same as running speed, so no, you won't catch up any more easily by flying. I also assume roots and snares work against aerial targets the same they do against ground targets. Right now it seems like there is nothing in the game to prevent an infinite kite run and your only hope as a gladiator or templar would be for the kiter to run out of space or make a blatant mistake. You can't count on that when fighting highly skilled opponents.

[Kyio]

Originally Posted by Frein

To me it seems like flight speed is the same as running speed, so no, you won't catch up any more easily by flying. I also assume roots and snares work against aerial targets the same they do against ground targets. Right now it seems like there is nothing in the game to prevent an infinite kite run and your only hope as a gladiator or templar would be for the kiter to run out of space or make a blatant mistake. You can't count on that when fighting highly skilled opponents.

Or they run out of mana / arrows :P

But I cant imagine they would allow the kiting to be as powerful a tool as it is currently, come the release. I have not seen any videos of pvp kiting yet, any you guys know of I would like to see them .

The gladiator types will be that lasting class for sure. Since they would rely on being directly next to their opponents, they should have something that will help them close the gap. Unlike assasins who have the ability to stealth and attack, the gladiator will be a very visable, probably physically the biggest looking, and very dependant on getting to you to survive (the kill or be killed thought), so I imagine they will appear to be Overpowered, but that is because they lack in fields that ranged-classes have... ranged attacking as their biggest advantage.

I'm still going ranger, I enjoy traping the melee while I volley some arrows into the healers. Then its a simple "1 on 1" with the hardest hit taking classes. More arrows to fire :P

[Taerr]

Personally, I only see being kited forever and ever as a problem in a one on one duel, otherwise, with a rangers low DPS, i'd say Gladiators should ignored rangers till other memebers of their party can get around to teaching the pesky mosquito a lesson. With Gladiators armour and defense, and assumable large amount of hp, i don't see tanking a ranger for a while as a problem, so i don't see kiting as a problem, but i also don't see gladiators being effective towards rangers, at least not one on one, or when they're paying attention to you specifictly

[BahamutKaiser]

From what I recognized, kiting was mostly enhanced by repeated snares, which allowed them to add distance. I do hope some dashing moves are added to Assassin and Gladiator to help them combat kiting, since it seems you can move wile using most abilities.

[c4tastroph3]

Originally Posted by Otium

I'm tired of saying that to Kattrina, but he loves to be a newbie.

For real. More targets, the better, just keep me healed while I plow into the newbs.

[Taerr]

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

From what I recognized, kiting was mostly enhanced by repeated snares, which allowed them to add distance. I do hope some dashing moves are added to Assassin and Gladiator to help them combat kiting, since it seems you can move wile using most abilities.

i do believe Assassins already has a skill that allows them to dash, not only do they have a move that increases movement speed, they also have a "blink" move that moves you next to the target, with i think 15sec cool down. i think its Gladiators that have the most trouble with Kiting

[BahamutKaiser]

Hmmm. well that's good to hear. I imagined that the warrior type classes would have the most survivability and the least maneuvering, just as long as both Templar and Gladiator have a legitimate advantage in knock down drag out combat, it is alright for them to have a disadvantage in maneuvering and range. Still, as a strategic element to ensure their own strategical interaction, I hope for sure that they will offer some useful benifits designed around protection of softer targets through adjacent interception of attacks, and blocking or punishing opponents who try to go around them to attack softer targets.

I think the thing I hate the most about the "tank" and armored classes are that their defensive advantages are limited to an agro system, and that there isn't an interactive and intuitive defense system to many MMOs. Even Square failed to satisfy with their dry combat experience and limited strategies and tactics, I'm hoping there are a minimum of 3 combat approaches for each character profession, 2 to even be worthwile.

[Kyio]

Originally Posted by c4tastroph3

For real. More targets, the better, just keep me healed while I plow into the newbs.

I got your back with my bow

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Hmmm. well that's good to hear. I imagined that the warrior type classes would have the most survivability and the least maneuvering, just as long as both Templar and Gladiator have a legitimate advantage in knock down drag out combat, it is alright for them to have a disadvantage in maneuvering and range. Still, as a strategic element to ensure their own strategical interaction, I hope for sure that they will offer some useful benifits designed around protection of softer targets through adjacent interception of attacks, and blocking or punishing opponents who try to go around them to attack softer targets.

I think the thing I hate the most about the "tank" and armored classes are that their defensive advantages are limited to an agro system, and that there isn't an interactive and intuitive defense system to many MMOs. Even Square failed to satisfy with their dry combat experience and limited strategies and tactics, I'm hoping there are a minimum of 3 combat approaches for each character profession, 2 to even be worthwile.

Almost word for word what I was thinking. What I did like in FFXI, was that the Provoke ability (similar to the Taunt ability in WoW), was modified for use in PvP somewhat. I am unsure how it worked, but it effected players somehow. I would love to see this taken to the next level and beyond in Aion. So far the only abilities that would be effective in both PvP and PvE, are abilities that so general stat increases: Dodge increase, Defence up, Parry up. I would love to see something more involved, maybe an ability that gladiators could use on a friendly target that would split the damage between them for 10 seconds or soemthing, so when a cleric comes under attack, you could pop that on them to lessen the impact and try to fend them off.

Just an idea.

[BahamutKaiser]

I was more considering defensive skills which would momentarily repel an incoming attack. For all melee classes, there should be some attack blocking and maybe countering abilities. But primarily for the two warrior advancements, movement and range are going to be against them, so rather they should have the effective strategy of holding possition beside softer targets to utilize defense skills which will repel attacks from foes directed in their general direction even if it is toward an adjacent foe, by either intercepting them with another attack and preventing the opponent from striking, or making a blocking motion to counter that attack.

Very precisely, I would expect Assassin to have something very basic, like the ability to deflect an attack or projectile directed only at themselves, to prevent some damage. But with the Gladiator and Templar I would expect more elaborate defenses, like the ability to block an attack directed at an adjacent ally with their weapon or shield, and the ability to counteract an attack causing the opponents attack to nullify wile striking back simultaniously.

But the Templar is casted as a defense class, and as we know in PvP, the use of defense is much less significant since foes will target the softer support charactes, and even taunting abilities are usually limited to a few foes or limited range, so a coordinated strike by several foes on an ally isn't going to be deflected in the least. This is where the Templar should specialize in a variety of defensive measures, including counteracting a foes attack targeted at an adjacent ally and not just yourself, counteracting with effects like stunning or knockdown which would pause an opponents onslaught. Continous guarding of adjacent allies by intercepting a percentage of attacks and projectiles in a small area. And also replenishing effects from blocking certain abilities, particularly in an extended gaurding stance, you may be able absorb the energy of a spell that you block, or you could capture it and reflect it back on an opponent, making guarding a simular function to attack combos, allowing you to capture an incoming spell in the initial use, and release it on a foe in the preceeding use.

This kind of actual defense offers a much more realistic and valuable gaurding function, making physical defensive support a legitimate support option to rival the healing power of a priest. To offer the maximum value of defense and bodygaurding, a system can be developed to allow the Templar to sheath his weapon, and grab his ally by the shoulder wile holding out his shield to intercept any damage directed toward the front and sides of his ally. This system can be designed simular to a mount system, where the two players become attacked (except this is by an outstretched arm holding them together) and the person being protected would move both players simultaniously. A system like this would allow a combination like a Templar and a Sorcerer to operate as a single unit, utilizing the full blasting power of the mage, wile benifiting from the enhanced defense and safety of the Warrior.

They can add nice combos, and a bit of provoking single opponent style combat, which will be the boor of a lifetime, and definetly disappoint previous FFXI players who hated the gameplay, but it is the dynamic option to fight multiple opponents simultaniously, and utilize counteractive and strategic defense moves which will surely ensure the breakout success of their gameplay system, everything else is just polish on existing gameplay system. It is this type of dynamic strategy which will make playing a defense class, and the game as a whole an overall fun experience. In situations where certain foes try to group nuke your party, a Templar is better off seperating himself and provoking the opponent toward him. Hopefully there will be effective provoke skills which will force the opponent to redirect their current or next attack toward themselves forcefully. When the opponent is trying to mob a single unit with attacks, or go for the soft one, the Templar can directly protect a few allies by standing beside them and deflecting some blows toward an allie, or totally intercept them with himself as the shield, which forces the foe to reconsider targets or try and break down the templar with the mage or priest he is guarding.

But most of all, with a local defense system, utilizing several tank type classes will have a significant value and strategic benifit. By forming up in a tight group, a group of Templar can make like a formation, all lending their defensive interception to one another, ensuring that any forward attack are greatly ineffective. A team may choose to use 3 Templar and 3 ranged combatants to form a small barrier of defense in front of them, ensuring that almost any melee attack from the front is sure to fail, and that the mages and rangers can nuke from the safety of a small blockade of defense. Strategic weaknesses would include vulnerability to the rear where the attacks will still reach the soft targets, and bombardment which will net heavy damage to groupped units.

This sort of defense is the key to enhancing online gameplay with functional defense classes, formation strategy, effective AoE damage and value liberated as a strategic tool to overcome defense strategies and not rendered obscure by poor incorperation, and most of all, the combat of multiple foes simultaniously wile still maintaining the system of strengths and weaknesses in a team of unique combat professions.

I'm afraid that this isn't actually what we have in Aion, so I'm hoping it will be good enough at least, but if they were able to incorperate those functions, this would be a revolutionary success.

[Frein]

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

This sort of defense is the key to enhancing online gameplay with functional defense classes, formation strategy, effective AoE damage and value liberated as a strategic tool to overcome defense strategies and not rendered obscure by poor incorperation, and most of all, the combat of multiple foes simultaniously wile still maintaining the system of strengths and weaknesses in a team of unique combat professions.

Formation strategies will never work in a game like this. Players are way too mobile for it to be effective and your barrier of defense would be cirumvented in the blink of an eye. Bunching up together also makes your team vulnerable to AoE effects and limits their own movement when they try to not get separated. Also, Aion does not have collision detection, does it? So you could just walk right through the Templars.

But anyway, this is more of a templar discussion as the gladiator is not a defensive class but an offensive one. His job is not to be a damage sponge for his robed buddy, his job is to be the frontline offensive powerhouse, a task he will have trouble performing if he can't reach his targets.

You also can't carelessly throw around concepts like protecting weaker team members or allowing softies to deal with enemy ranged fighters as this kind of thinking only works for large scale combat. In many cases your team will simply not have what you need to combat a certain class or you might even be alone. In that kind of situations you'd like to not have to just lie down and take it even if your class is at a disadvantage.