Celestin

Then why does it work in Monster Hunter Frontier?
I'll answer my own question: It doesn't have an open world. It's all instanced. There is no intention of mass fights whatsoever and I'm totally fine with that as long as it makes me rely on myself instead of stats.
"Grinding" in Monster Hunter happens through beating hard to handle (especially gameplay-wise) boss monsters. Killing weak monsters will not give you the materials you need for great armor and weapons, hence isn't going make you much stronger, no matter how often you rinse and repeat. There are no levels, no EXP. Only unlocking new quests through increasing your rank by beating missions. But it has everything else but that a MMORPG should have. It just takes a few parts away to add exactly what MMORPGs are missing much more than progression. Activity.

Hell, if Monster Hunter Frontier came here, I'd probably be busy playing it right now instead of discussing in this forum.


And of course Space Cowboy grinding was a piece of ****, because it was following the old definition of grinding, but made you do too many things actively. Monster Hunter makes you beat uber mobs alone or with friends, which is it's progression.

If I had to progress in Monster Hunter through getting EXP, beating those ****ing weak raptor prey's all the time with the combat system it has and only get to beat boss mobs now and then, I'd ****ing have dropped the game at the time I'd have realized how it would've worked.

Yes, I do not want significant levels in PvP. Let's just agree by saying that I want levels and equipment to give players a rather low advantage in combat through progressing when it comes to PvP, while I don't mind about PvE at all and I want to be active myself through implementing real time action combat like you've seen in the video I've posted.

Finally it seems like this discussion has come to an end.

I've said it countless times but I will say it once more. I don't care if my enemy has three times as high stats as me, as long as I am able to act by myself (a little like in D2, although D2 was VERY VERY VERY simple regarding gameplay mechanics - you said it yourself). And yes, a "chance to dodge", I've also said this countless times, that is generated by the dice-system in the background I could increase through repeating monotonous tasks over and over is something I do not want to see in PvP ever again. And that's only because I do not want my strength to be based purely on how much time I've spent on repeating monotonous tasks over and over again, but on how good I was doing playing the game by myself with acceptable progression advantages.

It's just as illogical as having invisible walls instead of a mountain blocking your path. The MMORPG genre is still rather young and it's time for it to get rid of the crucial mistakes it's still doing. Making PvP more based on gathered digital stats instead of player skill is something that's just wrong. No discussion about that. It was fine when MMORPGs were still about compensating this through RPing, since you were supposed to lose. But MMORPGs have changed alot since then. There's no compensation anymore. If I lose due to someone being higher than me, knowing that dude would lose if I was higher, I'm simply ****ed off and thinking that it's ****ing unfair, not thinking that I made a good scene dying due to my awesome roleplay.
And don't start with suggesting fighter games or FPS games again. A whole majority of people in the genre think exactly the same way as me. But most of them are taking this crap part of the game, because they love everything else about MMORPGs.

Wait, were you thinking I was talking about a certain stat system all the time? Actually, the stat system would be implemented afterwards. You can arrange the stats you like them to be. If you find that getting 10 strength per level is imbalanced, because it adds too much damage, then just lower it. lol
That is by no means a reason why the systems I've kept suggesting wouldn't work at all.
The main point is to make PvP what it's supposed to be. Not mainly about character progression, but mainly about who plays the game better. I just want an action based combat system that allows me to act by myself (evade and block through fast reaction like in the video) and not only lets stats speak while I can't do **** about being beaten up. It's about the principle about Player versus Player gaming. Or can you tell me another genre that has competitive gaming (which is PvP to begin with) which allows you to increase your avatars mathematical advantages ingame through repeating monotonous tasks over and over? There's a good reason why it's not like that in other genres and has never been.

Check this out and tell me why I shouldn't be able to beat my opponent if he had the double amount of stats and HP than me (it's a MORPG). And I've kept giving you examples for the scaling you've mentioned. In fact, my whole point about suggesting real time action combat like the one in the video is only about making those baselines.
Also check the post I've made in BahamutKaiser's thread.

And why should levels be significant? You could make them significant only for PvE by implementing skills which provide meaningful changes when fighting mobs or increasing stats through powerful NPC buffs that only work in PvE. Hell, even make characters hundred times stronger in PvE if you like, I don't care. But why can't we just keep this **** out of PvP? PvP in MMORPGs to me is really a farce, since PvP is supposed to be about which one plays the game better, not who has gathered higher stats over time through having repeated monotonous tasks over and over. I rarely use such terms, but here the term epeen comes to mind. There's nothing else to it but comparing length, really. It's not about being better, it's about showing off.
It's not fun to beat someone up who's 20 levels lower than me. It's not fun being beaten up by someone who's 20 level higher than me. And my experience tells me that anyone who can think rationally has the same opinion. Only those unbearable fags that KS for a living have fun beating low levels up and only weirdos/emos would like to keep running into high levels and die. You and some other people in this forums are the first one's who seem to think differently and I just can't think of a rational reason why you would do so.

I'm seeing why people want to keep character progression in a MMORPG. I want to keep it myself, because it what makes RPGs. In fact, making MMORPG be based more on player skill through implementing crucial gameplay mechanics which allow you to do so and lowering the current superficial character growth would naturally make progressing less important logically. But actually, I'd still try to get max level and beat the game (if you can say so when talking about a MMO). It wouldn't change the fact that you'd get stronger the more time you invest, but you'd have to do something different from it than just repeating very easy, monotonous tasks over and over again. You'd have to train your player skill, learn how to read enemy movements while progressing. And please don't tell me that this is already the case in current MMOs. I'm not the person you could fool by saying this, because I've way too much experience in the gaming world and have played games of every genre, especially fighter games and MMORPGs with shoddy gameplay mechanics.

And the assumption that levels and player skill cannot coexist is false. I've played online tennis games, soccer games, golf games, a version of tetris and some other things which had levels. Those levels made people stronger. You could even gather money and equipment which again made you stronger. The more you won, the better you got - in player skill and character stats equally. But since I generally understand the mechanics of a game and figure out which is important very fast, I've been winning against level 50 (double as high stats as me) as level 26 with a success chance of about 80-90%. This is because those games had gameplay mechanics which allowed me to react faster than others, to guess which move my enemy is going to use next through analyzing his playstyle. This is not possible in a MMORPG. Trust me, I've tried it in many games. And it's all just because of the exorbitant differences in levels due to superficial character growth and because of the dice system that doesn't allow openings at all and dumbs down combat almost completely on who has the better stats to begin with.

But not just the fact about getting stronger, also the fact that the process of getting stronger itself is always purely connected to very easy, but long tasks everyone can accomplish the same as the dumbest person in the world. There is no difference in who plays the character as soon as that person has understood the simple basics of the game and there is no MMO that has gameplay/mechanics that are harder to understand than cooking a fried egg.