Clerics kinda OP?

[Nyd]

Originally Posted by Dashel

Undispellable DP that deals 4x as much damage as your lifebar to an infinite amount of targets in a radius.

What could possibly be OP about that?

Perfect game balance. Learn 2 Play situation. Problem is between the chair and keyboard. A forth gamer cliche.

WoD is dispellable, making it useless against anyone smart enough to carry CC pots or be in a group with another Cleric.

EDIT: it's also only 12 targets.

[Amadaeo]

Like I said in the other topic about this:

Roll a cleric and refuse to equip weapons -- melee, I will note, and shield included -- or use ANY offensive skills whatsoever. No DoT, no Servant, no Smite, nothing. Rely entirely on your Legion and on PUGs to help you kill anything. Further, if you feel like it, switch to Cloth, because that's what they get on many other games. And see how far you get, even in Poeta.

Then, tell me how viable that is as a class on this game.

Seriously, do it. Because that's what you're asking me to do.

[kyris?]

Originally Posted by Amadaeo

Like I said in the other topic about this:

Roll a cleric and refuse to equip weapons -- melee, I will note, and shield included -- or use ANY offensive skills whatsoever. No DoT, no Servant, no Smite, nothing. Rely entirely on your Legion and on PUGs to help you kill anything. Further, if you feel like it, switch to Cloth, because that's what they get on many other games. And see how far you get, even in Poeta.

Then, tell me how viable that is as a class on this game.

Seriously, do it. Because that's what you're asking me to do.

... way to blow things out of proportion completely...

it says in your sig that you are level 33. so you have no idea what you're talking about as far as i'm concerned.

the issue here is not clerics being able to do good damage, its the fact that they can do AMAZING damage AND heal themselves to full whenever they feel like it AND have an amazing CC - 6 second root on a 12 second cooldown. so basically they root you, run to 30 ft away, then by the time you get near them THEY ROOT YOU AGAIN. can you imagine how frustrating that is? being rooted constantly and nuked down from 100% to dead in 20~ seconds while you pop potions & blow all your cooldowns and you cannot do ANYTHING to kill the cleric?

at end-game, level 50 clerics who spec for damage absolutely dominate almost everything in 1v1 pvp. they do ridiculous amounts of damage. in fact, i would even go as far as saying clerics have BETTER dps than spiritmasters who are a freakin' DPS class...

the ONLY class that stands a chance vs cleric is spiritmasters, but only because they can endlessly CC them... melee stand absolutely no chance vs clerics unless the cleric is absolutely terrible, in that case you just stunlock him when he tries to heal <50% hp

clerics are absolutely godlike at end-game. i just pray that things get a little more balanced when melee start getting their gold weps and pvp gear, cos if this continues then i swear to god i will simply delete my templar and re-roll cleric, because there would be no point playing any other class for pvp.

p.s had about 7 beers tonight, so if you plan on replying to this with some smartass reply, here's a pre-emptive "go f*ck yourself, son." ..|..

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by kyris?

... way to blow things out of proportion completely...

Says the guy who wants an entire class nerfed.

it says in your sig that you are level 33. so you have no idea what you're talking about as far as i'm concerned.

The nice thing about the internets and a game that's been out for over a year is that not only can I learn my class as I play it, I can learn via others' experience, too. So sod off. :3

the issue here is not clerics being able to do good damage, its the fact that they can do AMAZING damage

You have clearly not played a cleric.

AND heal themselves to full whenever they feel like it

One, we can't do that if you're putting pressure on us all the time, and two-- well, same point: only if you refuse to do your job and attack them. Our biggest heals are slow to cast and our fastest heals have cooldowns that mean we're dead if we use them at the wrong time.

AND have an amazing CC - 6 second root on a 12 second cooldown.

Breaks on contact, dispellable. Do you not have gear and scrolls to move once it's off?

so basically they root you, run to 30 ft away,

Puffing all the while, and if you're smart you took to the air. Where's your flight gear and flight potions?

then by the time you get near them THEY ROOT YOU AGAIN.

It takes you twelve second to run like a nyerk?

can you imagine how frustrating that is? being rooted constantly and nuked down from 100% to dead in 20~ seconds

Constantly? 12 seconds is a long time. I do know what it's like to be stunlocked constantly and pumped full of arrows, or silenced, or any number of things, by a guy who is just waiting for me to be dumb and use Flash so he can turn around and hit me twice as hard after I can't recover.

while you pop potions & blow all your cooldowns and you cannot do ANYTHING to kill the cleric?

What, did you lose your mouse or something?

at end-game, level 50 clerics who spec for damage absolutely dominate almost everything in 1v1 pvp. they do ridiculous amounts of damage. in fact, i would even go as far as saying clerics have BETTER dps than spiritmasters who are a freakin' DPS class...

Yeah! That's why we dominate the top of the... heeey, wait. Have you even LOOKED at our skills? Even endgame? And you know that once we spec for damage we risk becoming glass cannons, right? Since our survivability is hugely based on stacking +hp?

p.s had about 7 beers tonight, so if you plan on replying to this with some smartass reply, here's a pre-emptive "go f*ck yourself, son." ..|..

Wow, you're a nyerk. Learn to play, too.

You act like you have no ability to do damage. You also seem to have no idea how our heals work. Our heals DO NOT SCALE with gear at endgame. That means that other classes, who can spec up their damage whilst sticking to their class's core capabilities, can do so while if we do, we sacrifice major survivability and, I repeat, get no boost to our heals.

That means that the damage you do makes my heals much smaller. And the faster you do damage, the less chance I'll have of getting a big heal off. And if you're smart, you'll make me use it at a bad moment and then follow up with a bigger attack. And if I specced for damage, noting that my magical attacks are way less powerful than other casters', then my heals go even less far than they did. Dropping all that HP means your increased damage output hits extremely hard. Last I knew, Clerics do not have Templars' natural ability to soak damage more than other classes do.

Unless some level 50 clerics would like to demonstrate that I'm full of ****, I'm quite sure I'm not.

Oh, and about exaggeration?

I can't root you constantly and nuke you in 20 seconds. As you yourself said, root has a 12 second cooldown. That means I can root you once. I can then attack you, whereupon the root breaks, if you haven't broken it first with a pot. Last I knew, other classes' abilities are badass at endgame, too. Now, if root had a 2 second cooldown, I could root you constantly for 12 seconds. But I don't. I won't even have that at level 50. I don't have reliable stuns, I can't silence or fear you, I can't pull you back to me, and I have /one/ root which I can't constantly use-- and again, I won't be able to at level 50! Our heals plateau and never get better, so it's not like we get godlike that way, either. In fact, their effectiveness goes down as everyone else levels up.

I don't know why you refuse to attack, use pots, use foods, or anything else, but you're full of ****. And telling me my opinion is invalid because I'm not level 50 is also full of ****. I looked in-depth into what this class could do before I picked it. I also researched how other classes kill clerics, including high-level ones, in order to try to figure out what NOT to do, especially as I level up and everyone else gets so much stronger. I've tried to apply these things early on, so I can try to break out of bad habits before I hit endgame.

[kyris?]

Originally Posted by Amadaeo

Says the guy who wants an entire class nerfed.

The nice thing about the internets and a game that's been out for over a year is that not only can I learn my class as I play it, I can learn via others' experience, too. So sod off. :3
You have clearly not played a cleric.
One, we can't do that if you're putting pressure on us all the time, and two-- well, same point: only if you refuse to do your job and attack them. Our biggest heals are slow to cast and our fastest heals have cooldowns that mean we're dead if we use them at the wrong time.
Breaks on contact, dispellable. Do you not have gear and scrolls to move once it's off?
Puffing all the while, and if you're smart you took to the air. Where's your flight gear and flight potions?
It takes you twelve second to run like a nyerk?
Constantly? 12 seconds is a long time. I do know what it's like to be stunlocked constantly and pumped full of arrows, or silenced, or any number of things, by a guy who is just waiting for me to be dumb and use Flash so he can turn around and hit me twice as hard after I can't recover.
What, did you lose your mouse or something?

Yeah! That's why we dominate the top of the... heeey, wait. Have you even LOOKED at our skills? Even endgame? And you know that once we spec for damage we risk becoming glass cannons, right? Since our survivability is hugely based on stacking +hp?
Wow, you're a nyerk. Learn to play, too.

You act like you have no ability to do damage. You also seem to have no idea how our heals work. Our heals DO NOT SCALE with gear at endgame. That means that other classes, who can spec up their damage whilst sticking to their class's core capabilities, can do so while if we do, we sacrifice major survivability and, I repeat, get no boost to our heals.

That means that the damage you do makes my heals much smaller. And the faster you do damage, the less chance I'll have of getting a big heal off. And if you're smart, you'll make me use it at a bad moment and then follow up with a bigger attack. And if I specced for damage, noting that my magical attacks are way less powerful than other casters', then my heals go even less far than they did. Dropping all that HP means your increased damage output hits extremely hard. Last I knew, Clerics do not have Templars' natural ability to soak damage more than other classes do.

Unless some level 50 clerics would like to demonstrate that I'm full of ****, I'm quite sure I'm not.

Oh, and about exaggeration?

I can't root you constantly and nuke you in 20 seconds. As you yourself said, root has a 12 second cooldown. That means I can root you once. I can then attack you, whereupon the root breaks, if you haven't broken it first with a pot. Last I knew, other classes' abilities are badass at endgame, too. Now, if root had a 2 second cooldown, I could root you constantly for 12 seconds. But I don't. I won't even have that at level 50. I don't have reliable stuns, I can't silence or fear you, I can't pull you back to me, and I have /one/ root which I can't constantly use-- and again, I won't be able to at level 50! Our heals plateau and never get better, so it's not like we get godlike that way, either. In fact, their effectiveness goes down as everyone else levels up.

I don't know why you refuse to attack, use pots, use foods, or anything else, but you're full of ****. And telling me my opinion is invalid because I'm not level 50 is also full of ****. I looked in-depth into what this class could do before I picked it. I also researched how other classes kill clerics, including high-level ones, in order to try to figure out what NOT to do, especially as I level up and everyone else gets so much stronger. I've tried to apply these things early on, so I can try to break out of bad habits before I hit endgame.

just one question: have you played cleric at 50 and experienced end-game pvp, yes or no?

[Araella]

I fought a 40 + cleric once and the fight took almost 3 minutes.
I seriously almost had sleep arrow off cooldown again and I finally got one of those crazy stun shot crits.
We'd still be fighting if I hadn't.

[Wiegraf]

It's pretty typical for healers to be defensive about being nerfed, they are one of the most needed classes and as such should be pretty powerful.

Now powerful in what sense is what should come to mind, everyone brings fair points, if you nerf damage they suffer in grinding. Nerf heals and people start dying and they lack at their 'primary' job, nerf mitigation and they are arguably useless as they will always be a pretty prime target.

This game is a group pvp game--as such clerics have to be able to withstand the onslaught of focus fire that will undoubtedly be coming their way. They need to be powerful. However, they need to be powerful in a defensive stance while still keeping their PvE damage in tact or there will just be a lack entirely of clerics.

Clearly NC has nerfed damage in the PvP aspect while still leaving PvE untouched, this action is about the most suitable in dealing with clerics so that they can still be happy without being overpowered.

The more damage that is taken however should be replaced in an equal or greater amount to their defensive abilities either amount of mitigation which is arguably more work than just adding to heals. They can already escape burst as is if played well simply due to an anti-burst spell (instant heal) but once that is burned they are in a 30 second period where burst is a problem and if their best defense is no longer great offense they need to be able to heal larger chunks.

I don't think anybody should have a problem with larger heals as it helps everyone in any sense. However, a class that has excellent heals (they're already pretty potent no lies) should not be able to rival DPS classes and certainly not kill any tank except by means of simply outlasting them. I can point you to pre-nerf smite clerics in DAoC, the clerics loved it and fought vehemently to keep them the same but it was blatantly obvious just how overpowered having medium-high mitigation, nice heals, and excellent damage proved to be.

However, I can't stress enough that PvE has to stay the same for them or there will simply be no more clerics as was the case with post-nerf clerics, nobody played one unless they TRULY loved healing because there was no damage to speak of in Pve or Pvp. Clerics in their current state do need to be changed though there is no justification for not having to stress healing stats if their base damage is high enough to make MOST classes an easy battle with some subpar strategy.

[Chob]

Clerics are not overpowered fools! Magic resistance kills them.

[Sourn]

I love being a cleric, id say I really only have trouble with Rangers and SM. The rest I can heal through and wear down, but im only level 28 so what do I know right?

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by kyris?

just one question: have you played cleric at 50 and experienced end-game pvp, yes or no?

Spare me.

The game's been out for over a year and it's been solidly established that other classes can kill clerics at endgame 1v1 PVP. I'd be a ****** cleric if I didn't do my research.

You, clearly, have not bothered to.

Originally Posted by Wiegraf

It's pretty typical for healers to be defensive about being nerfed,

The people with the issue are the folks who play so poorly that they can't beat a class which can be beaten, so they whinge about nerfing it instead of learning how to play better. Pardon me if I don't wish to see my class gimped because you won't learn how to strategise better. Just because something is a challenge doesn't mean it requires a nerf. It just requires you to rise to the challenge. That's the case with every class in this game.

An endgame Cleric has a nyerk of a time killing an endgame Templar, whose strategy is often to /also/ simply outlast their enemies and slowly damage them to death. Many times, it just ends in a pointless draw. I'm not demanding that they be nuked. A Sorc can two-shot almost anyone if he blows his magical wad. I'm not demanding that they be nuked, either. And on and on.

[Wiegraf]

Amadeo, I posted constructive ideas you are simply stating you don't want to see your pvp damage dropped into an acceptable range. You will not be gimped as you put it, you will be on even grounds with people who can't heal.

I'm not defending the people who don't know how to play their class, but when someone has to try harder than you do on most occasions to win a fight or rather, stand a chance of winning, you've crossed the line of fairness.

Don't balance around 1v1, but don't ignore that not all fights are massive battles and you can't have roving healing death machines.

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Wiegraf

Amadeo, I posted constructive ideas you are simply stating you don't want to see your pvp damage dropped into an acceptable range.

That is your opinion. The devs currently don't seem to see your opinion as fact, a fact for which I am glad. As it is, I have also posted my opinion, which you summarily dismissed because I'm not level 50, so don't talk to me about not listening.

You will not be gimped as you put it, you will be on even grounds with people who can't heal.

No, I would be on lesser grounds with people who can play and with people who can't.

I'm not defending the people who don't know how to play their class,

Oh, you are.

but when someone has to try harder than you do on most occasions to win a fight or rather, stand a chance of winning, you've crossed the line of fairness.

You can say that about just about any class on this game.

Don't balance around 1v1, but don't ignore that not all fights are massive battles and you can't have roving healing death machines.

Every class, properly geared out and at level 50, is a death machine. For all of my healing, another class might have more durability, another more CC, another more stuns, and another more DPS, and on and on.

Most classes seem to have guides on PVP. Those guides usually tell you how to kill us. I suggest reading them and watching videos of them and talking to people who've done it. *I* read them because I want to know what strategies they use to do so, particularly at endgame, so I know what to expect and so I can attempt to counter these very successful strategies.

I also suggest playing a Cleric, since a good way to learn how to kill a class is by playing them so you know their skillsets and strategies. I certainly plan on trying to play one of each, in part for that purpose.

[Wiegraf]

Amadeo... you are not arguing my points you are just telling me learn to play in a side-step-the-issue type of way.

I understand I am 'attacking' your class and that makes you unhappy but you are not offering why you feel I'm wrong past 'you're wrong watch videos'. What you are doing, Amadeo, is known as propaganda.

I am looking at clerics pretty rationally and while the devs may not agree with me, I'm sure many people do--many people that know how to play their class. You don't want to give leeway on my argument for fear of some unsaid 'yes I too, a cleric, think we're overpowered' which isn't what I am aiming for.

I simply have seen this all before, and even you yourself I have seen, a healer class comes packed with just a few too many tricks or tricks just a bit too powerful and just because you are one of the essential parts of a group you ride on the idea that you should have these. The damage needs to be brought down, but only in PvP, if you are arguing you should keep everything as is and there is no problem, I am afraid you are simply ignorant and wanting to believe all these other people are much worse players than yourself.

Also, you are assuming by leaps and bounds upon each post that is commenting against clerics that they don't know how to play. Clerics can die, I'm not trying to say they are gods and that I personally can't kill one but the amount of effort, timing, items needed are all a bit over the top and if a cleric REALLY knows what they are doing no matter of effort is going to allow you to kill them without either help or a delightfully lucky string of random crits. When more and more clerics seem to possess this 'skillful' playing moreso than many other classes, maybe it's time to step back and think is it really the players?

Keep in mind now, none of this is a personal attack I'd very much like to get away from your flaming and perhaps hear some ideas of your own. Save the ignorance remark I suppose you can consider that personal, but it's all in good fun.

[Aroihkin]

Hey guys, I have a great idea, let's change class dynamics mid-way through the game before most of us have even seen endgame. That'll work great!

...All the arguments are getting tldr for me. I'm a damn Templar, we're nyerked for 2/3 of the game, as I just said in another thread, and you don't see me screaming to have my class buffed.

Grow a pair, and save this sh*t for when a few waves of the NA crowd has actually hit level 50.

Christ.



Who's it going to be next week? Temps? Just wait until we start whipping our aoe fear/stealth-killer out of our pants...

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Wiegraf

Amadeo... you are not arguing my points you are just telling me learn to play in a side-step-the-issue type of way.

Oh, no, I'm stating so quite directly, and I have said how already. You just dismissed what I said as 'not level 50'. That is not a rational argument, by the way.

I understand I am 'attacking' your class and that makes you unhappy but you are not offering why you feel I'm wrong past 'you're wrong watch videos'.

You are lying. If you had read my posts in this and the other topic, which I know you have as you've been posting in both, you would know that I quite clearly detailed how to kill Clerics; your response was, 'you're not level 50, you don't know what you're talking about'. Since you're pretending I didn't: You're wrong. Watch videos. Read guides. Talk to people. You know, learn to play.

Also, you are assuming by leaps and bounds upon each post that is commenting against clerics that they don't know how to play.

That is correct, as people have learned how to kill them and do so regularly. If they can, so can you and anyone else.

Clerics can die, I'm not trying to say they are gods and that I personally can't kill one but the amount of effort, timing, items needed are all a bit over the top

'It's too hard!'

and if a cleric REALLY knows what they are doing no matter of effort is going to allow you to kill them without either help or a delightfully lucky string of random crits.

That's how we kill many other classes too, you know. Notably Templars.

When more and more clerics seem to possess this 'skillful' playing moreso than many other classes,

Which is false, though I hear Chanters struggle.

maybe it's time to step back and think is it really the players?

Yes, when many players have no problem doing what you find so difficult.

Keep in mind now, none of this is a personal attack I'd very much like to get away from your flaming

Says the guy who dismisses every argument with a, 'You're not level 50'.

and perhaps hear some ideas of your own.

See above.

Save the ignorance remark I suppose you can consider that personal, but it's all in good fun.

Translation: 'I was only joking but not really, wink wink.'

-------------------------

Oh, just wait, Alley. When a bunch of Templars hit level 45-50 and y'all are using your anti-stun, anti-debuff, offensive debuff, Howl fear thing, AoE IJ, oh, and outlasting just about everything else, they'll start demanding y'all get nerfed, too.

Just like Spiritmasters should be nerfed, and Sorcs should be nerfed.

Glads, too, since they can knockdown and stunlock an opponent into oblivion.