Aion's PvP is like EVE. That's why the WOW kids hate it.

[Lodur]

Any system to make "fair" fights in an MMO always becomes very artificial and disconnected from the rest of the game.
It's a virtual world with two factions at war, and in real wars people don't gather in an arena with measures taken to ensure a fair fight.
Fair fights is very rare in a war...one side is usually better equipped, more experienced or more numerous.
As long as the balance between factions is good the war is fair even if almost none of the battles are.

[Ooby]

I'm curious where anyone who made Aion said that the PvP was going to be fair all the time. Or fair at all? From reading this, your version of fair is that a person higher level than you cannot come kill you. Or that 3 people your level can't gang up on you. You want structure. Like battle grounds or scenario's?

To me, and a LOT of other people who enjoy Aion, fair means I get the same skills as Sorcs on the other realm. Hell that's a cop out, because it easier to give each realm the same skills instead of different skills that balance well. Fair means that the game was marketed as a PvP game so it wasn't surprising the first time I got jumped in Morheim by Elyos who were rifting.

I think people are just frustrated because the negative aspects of the game are more negative than they initially anticipated. Doesn't mean the game is unfair.

If it IS unfair, that means someone, some group has to have the unfair advantage. Who is that? Higher level people? Are you not able to level up to the same level they are?

[Vitiate]

Originally Posted by PostGlas

^^^ Agreed.
And, yes, I also play EVE, WoW, and Guild Wars. ^_^
(Hmm... OK, long enough that I don't need 10char ;-) )

Post script --
A later poster recommended "spicing up" PvP zones to make them more enticing.
Over the long haul, that might not be a bad idea.

QFT eve player since 04.

[lucifear]

WoW is a terrible game, crap nyerk-easy PvE and simply dumb pvp

[Saintsinner]

Originally Posted by Alandoril

I absolutely agree.

There is no player versus player in this game...it's players versus player.

The only reason anyone actually stands around to fight is if they know they've got the higher levels or they've just got into the Abyss after hitting 25. Frankly, it's a borked system.

And this game is nothing like Eve.

FFA would certainly fix the Boting issues =)

I would love an FFa server...you can bet there would be zero bots on it.

[Uvirith]

Just to be perfectly clear, 6vs6, Arenas, BGs and matches between equal opponent HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH RvR!

For your understanding, the term RvR stands for Realm versus Realm. That means the whole crowd of one side battles the other side in a consistent environment.

That means getting outnumbered is perfectly fine, cause its one of the main designs of a massive MULTIPLAYER online role playing game!

If youre getting zerged, go and gather youre legion and a bunch of others together. Start a warband, go Raid the keeps, go face the enemy with your fellow companions.

I honestly thin all of you became spoiled by that stupid newage-MMos with their sissy Battlegrounds, Arenas and whatsoever.

If you really think RvR has to be equal vs equal and should only be decided by the playerskill, then you really dont understand the basics of the whole Genre. If it is so, please go play another game....

[OdessaEU]

Originally Posted by zax

EVE is a game for skillless players, so is Aion.

Said the WoW player. Let me guess, you played Retri Pala or Death Knight?

Originally Posted by faction

Those stupid WoW kids and their winning money, and their even fights, and their fairness... back in my day, the amount of "fun" you had was decided by how many more people you had over your enemy. Those kids have no idea. Stupid kids.

Well, not always. In Lineage II i enjoyed ripping apart 20-30 people with my 9-man group easily, just because they sucked and couldn't even win when outnumbered 3:1.

Originally Posted by Calibix

First PvP game I played was UO. Anywhere you went, other than towns of course, was open PvP. Honestly, I prefer open pvp like the abyss. I think too many people whine about being ganked (then again I'm above the level curve and play on a lower population server, so I might not being seeing this).

What a good PvP game needs is FFA with RPK Penalties. If you murdered someone in lineage or UO (i.e. killed someone who didn't fought back), the attacking player became murderer and couldn't enter towns anymore for example or being able to be killed by anyone w/o the others being penalized. Lacking of this and hard death penalties, it will end in endless ganking, because people know: I can only gain/win AP/Honor/Points and and if you die, tough luck. If you died in LA2/UO you had a very high penalty, so you simply didn't died and did your best to kill your enemy.

Originally Posted by thrash242

After you've done PvP in Eve, no other game's PvP will be as "hardcore", so all the ganking and lack of "fair" fights doesn't bother me. All the people whining about this amuse me. Fights aren't supposed to be fair in war--you want every advantage possible. If you want fair, balanced, arena-style PvP, try Guild Wars. I mean that seriously, not sarcastically, BTW--that game does it better than any other.

There are other games as hardcore, if not even more than EVE. But non of this old school (and only real PvP) games was ever released since 2002, with exception of Darkfall Online.

Originally Posted by Cuts

i think Aion is structured fairly well. rifting & Spy Quests gives a soft intro to PvP for those not ready for a more savage experience & can still progress in level smoothly through mostly PvE. the Abyss gives the risk vs reward structure, which can be punishing on lower levels, but with proper preparation a player can progress much more quickly there than through the rift zones.

i think the risk vs reward structure of the Abyss goes over the heads of most casual players, who think that once you reach 25, the Abyss is where a player is meant to be. not all players are ready for the Abyss, especially if they are not accustomed to dealing with higher level characters / the need for consumables & are looking for an isolated / safe levelling experience.

Actually i don't think so. The current PvP system only approaches casual and carebear players. Problem with nowadays PvP games is, they are not made for the sake of PvP, but of the sake of max. profits. In UO/Lineage II/Shadowbane days, developers made a game with good and exciting PvP and harsh punishments. 150-300 subscribers were a huge success and the game could survive with that numbers. Nowadays big publishers who bought all independent game developers, only want to see a ROI of 200-500% of what they've put in, even if it means an early death of said game.

Early PvP MMOs are made for the passionate PvPers who would bear the risk of all the harsh penalties. Modern PvP MMOs are made for the casuals, the "wide mass" of people, who didn't even know how to use a PC 6-9 years ago.

And that's the main reason why people, like me, cry about current PvP implementations. They are just boring. No drama, no risk, no adrenaline.

Originally Posted by DiSpLiFF

i don't understand what points you're trying to make here? did you even read any of the posts? Risk vs Reward? What risk is there when i can farm guards for my abyss points and just run away with ease whenever someone tries to gank me? I played lineage 2 to level 68, the best part of that game was their castle sieges. You had to be very organized, you had to sign up and schedule sieges, and there wasn't the ridiculous component of pveing a mob to gain control of the castle. I liked wow bg's until people started exploiting them by afking/botting to gain honor. Lineage 2 also had great pvp incentives because they made farming zones that were above par for both xp and drops. People fought for these zones constantly, it was great because it was FFA legion vs legion forcing people to form alliances etc.

Unless something is drastically different at end game i don't see any pvp problems in aion being resolved. Honestly its my fault for thinking this game would be a lot like lineage 2.

I for myself, wasn't expecting much from Aion's PvP.

• Mainly started it as friends playing it too and there was no other MMO to spend my time with. The main reason why I was expecting that Aion's PvP will suck was that it had RvR.
  
  Playing since 1998, I know, that predetermined enemies is very bad for PvP.
• Reward-driven PvP. This is one of the worst things to do in a PvP game. This basically force people into grinding some imaginary points to buy items with it, instead of doing PvP for fun. As a hardcore old school PvPer, i don't like such systems. In Lineage II I did PvP for fun, there was no reward other than being better than your enemy.
• Abyss Points through PvE. Next worth thing and very carebear-ish and just another timesink.
• Next reason was, that the death penalties are quite to low, especially in PvP. Where is the punishment if you can buy back 2/3 or 3/4 of your XP? Or if you can't delevel. w/o deleveling, what's the point in a death on lv 50?

Originally Posted by DiSpLiFF

PS rifting is fun i guess, its more of getting an alliance steam rolling people soloing, and or killing bots much like most of the games pvp.

IMO the best resolution to aions pvp problems in my mind is to make zones that have higher drop rates/better xp/abyss points and making it available to farm on both sides. Really the only fun i've ever had pvping in this game was fighting over balaur guards and as time goes most forts will be player controlled so opposing factions won't be battling for mobs.

PPS the above statement the zones shouldn't be in the abyss as its just to easy to run away there.

Correctly. The only interesting and fun thing, for the time being, is rifting. It's fun to go with a group of 3 or 4 people and fight other asmo groups there.

However, even this becomes boring after a while, especially in the 40+ as the only zones where you can rift into and made sense are Heiron/Beluslan and 70% of it are just bots or some low players. Why? Cause of instancing. You will only find solo players there. Most groups go Steel Rake for XP grinding.

Abyss PvP is totally boring imho, Sieges even more. L2 Sieges were exciting where you sign up in advance, plan the siege, craft your golems. Or as defender gather your allies to defend the siege, make tactics how to best defend it AND have free choice of setting up NPCs. This gave 100 times more possibilities and required some real tactical and strategical skill.

Miss that times...

[Apidya]

Originally Posted by Uvirith

Just to be perfectly clear, 6vs6, Arenas, BGs and matches between equal opponent HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH RvR!

[...]

I have to disagree here. Actually 6vs6 does have to do with RvR since it can take place in a realm vs realm situation. You just can't insist on not being added.
I personally have mainly played DAoC in the last few years and used to run in 8mans only there. While we had a gentleman's agreement with several groups interested in 8vs8 not to add each other, we used to play in the normal RvR-zones and try ourselves vs zergs for example.
That included getting zerged (and not moaning - well, on vent of course, but not publicly) as well.

This is the concept of 6vs6 (or 8vs8) as it comes from DAoC, even though it alternated a bit at the end. It is very different from WoW's or WAR's arena pvp though where nobody could ever add on you.

I agree to you about the rest you said, all of that is a very important part of an MMO. Even though I personally like to do things differently and not zerg, I think that it is actually required for a healthy game.

[djn]

wow pvp is terribad
dont know eve but if its like aion its terrible
aion is terrible

lineage 2 is where pvp is amazing

[archvonbaron]

Originally Posted by djn

wow pvp is terribad
dont know eve but if its like aion its terrible
aion is terrible

lineage 2 is where pvp is amazing

Eve Onlines pvp is close to L2 then it is to Aion. Although I haven't really played l2 a huge amount, I did find that out .
And pvp is what you make it, if it's boring you then change how you pvp. Wow pvp on the whole sucked ***, but it was brilliant when the horde had a pop at the alliances bosses before the achievement system was added in. I think there might still be a vid up on youtube (something like "Drak'thul city raid). If I remember correctly there was around 500 horde who pretty much destroyed the server for the Eastern Kingdoms.
I guess the death penalty will increase as people start to get to a higher rank, at the moment all it is a few abyss points that you don't notice All I'm hoping is that the forts don't get to the point they did on War where people would tell you to stop defending 1 because they want their inf points.

[Veles]

Did not read the whole thread, but I can conclude from the title that EVE PVP system is crap!?

[wrait]

Originally Posted by Breakin

That didn't make much sense, honestly.

But hey, I'll tell you why I'd want a fair fight in Aion. Because it's a RPG. It's a different GAME. It's a different way of having a fair fight. You know? I'm not sure if you can understand me, but you can't bring a FPS and Dota ( dunno what genre is this considered ) in a discussion about RPG games.

I think I can try giving you an example.

Imagine if CS was something like an online version of TES Oblivion, just that there are no swords and there are only guns. Now would that be fun? You are just exploring around and BAM!, some guy shoots you with an AWP. Would that be fun? Wouldn't you be like ' Hey, that wasn't fair, I want a fair fight with this guy in an Arena or something! '? Or you wouldn't care? Same thing with Aion.

I'm not sure my example was understandable, but anyway...

No if that guy shoots you in the head, you get some friends together hunt him down and shoot him back. Then hopefully he has friends and things get kinky from there. The best PvP happens when people just get together and try and mass grief the heck out of each other.

People play persistent worlds for a reason(look at EvE). I enjoy the dynamics of not always knowing who and how many are really there. Sometimes you survive, sometimes you don't, sometimes you outmaneuver your enemy and their numbers don't matter so much.

Since this is a partial WoW thread, early game wow my guild would go camp lower level towns, why? Because we knew that after 30 minutes or so higher levels would start to come to the rescue and we'd get a good fight going. Why did TM v SS happen? I mean clearly the numbers were always going to be imbalanced there, and yet people spent hours pushing back and forth. And yes at times it was just a zerg but other times top end guilds were using as an epeen contest and strategy mattered. The main thing though was that both instances were just part of the larger world on community. They flowed out of the community instead of existing as a separate rule set form the main game.

Anyway I can understand the desire for even battles at times, they're a different type of gameplay and they can be fun, but truly living world RVR is a whole different thing.

[Jodine]

I agree with everything the OP said apart from the part that the wow way was terrible.

[Roymachine]

Originally Posted by thrash242

I've seen some similarities also (but also quite a few differences).

One similarity is how even in "safe" areas (Morheim, etc), the enemy can show up and gank you, just like in Eve, you can be suicide-ganked in high-sec.

After you've done PvP in Eve, no other game's PvP will be as "hardcore", so all the ganking and lack of "fair" fights doesn't bother me. All the people whining about this amuse me. Fights aren't supposed to be fair in war--you want every advantage possible. If you want fair, balanced, arena-style PvP, try Guild Wars. I mean that seriously, not sarcastically, BTW--that game does it better than any other.

What was hardcore about EVE's PvP? Sure you could lose your ship and get ganked by massive amts of people, but I don't really consider EVE a hardcore pvp game. It was more slow and strategic, like a laid back person's type of pvp. I could sit there drinkin a coke and eatin a chicken sandwich while PvPing in EVE.

[Bigby Wolf]

Originally Posted by Lythria

WoW's PvP system is pretty fail now. If you dont play an Arms Warrior, Rogue, DK, Ret Pally, Destro Warlock, Frost Mage you might as well not even try. BGs are a joke now especially Alterac Valley. Its not even a BG anymore its a race to kill the other person's faction leader and you run right past the others without even casting a single spell at them. I have been in an AV fight from start to finish and I was the #1 in kills with 7 and I wanted more but everyone is too concerned with not PvPing. Wintergrasp is also a joke since on most servers either the horde severely outnumbers the alliance or the alliance has far more people. I was on a server that went 3 weeks without ever having Wintergrasp....Yea thats balanced.

Anyone who thinks arena takes skill also probably think breathing takes skill. Its just a bunch of pillar humping sissies. And again only certain classes and specs are viable. If arenas were balanced then every comp should have an equal chance of winning. I should be able to play enhance shaman and shadow priest team and as long as we know our classes then we should be able to do as well as a Warrior/Druid team or what ever the FoTM arena setup is right now.

owned..

/10charnyerk