The Rock Paper Scissors Formula

Volacious · 11-04-2009, 03:05 PM

Is the below how its intended?

Healers: Beat tanks, lose to mages, even fight with scouts

Mages: Beat healers, lose to scouts, even fight with tanks

Tanks: Beat scouts, lose to healers, even fight with mages

Scouts: Beat casters, lose to tanks, even fight with healers.

Lots of talk of rock paper scissors, but never seen anyone actually put it down on paper.

- Vol

PsiCleric · 11-04-2009, 04:26 PM

Prettimuch, yeah, though no one claims Aion is balanced for 1v1.

There is the widely held belief that ranged>melee at lower levels, and most of the QQ about certain classes being OP are really about the range v melee aspect being unbalanced, rather than the rock v paper v scissors aspect being unbalanced. We'll have to see if it evens out in end game.

Volacious · 11-04-2009, 04:40 PM

Yeah, I didn't mean it as an absolute outcome, more of who has an innate advantage over who. Of course, levels, gear & skill can overcome the innate advantage. (although levels seems like the trump card until 50)

Wisemage · 11-04-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volacious

Is the below how its intended?

Healers: Beat tanks, lose to mages, even fight with scouts

Mages: Beat healers, lose to scouts, even fight with tanks

Tanks: Beat scouts, lose to healers, even fight with mages

Scouts: Beat casters, lose to tanks, even fight with healers.

Lots of talk of rock paper scissors, but never seen anyone actually put it down on paper.

- Vol

FOr mages thats wrong but for everyone else looks OK.

(as a sorc) healers are a complete nyerk to kill, even if i get the jump with an inferno they still end up winning (i dont have elvel 40 silence yet though) And sins are really easy but Rangers are impossible. And glads and temps are just a cake walk, Kiting > melee.

Volacious · 11-04-2009, 06:00 PM

Here's the thing - if only a single of that list doesn't reflect reality then one archetype is under/over powered.

Healers (clerics specifically) being a little OP is generally accepted as result of the pvp damage reduction w/o a change in healing. Hopefully a little balancing is in the works. (Basically clerics admit to being OP)

Some mages say healers are a cakewalk w/ the right counters/rotation - and I tend to believe them. So if at least some mages are beating clerics, chanters, temps, glads and sins with relative ease.... what gives?

This is not meant to be a QQ thread, but a discussion of what "balanced" should be in rock/paper/scissors setup w/ 4 archetypes. (ie "balanced" isn't every class is balanced vs. every class, but that they have an the intended advantage/disadvantage vs the other archetypes)

Alilei · 11-04-2009, 07:31 PM

YouTube - Rock, Paper, Scissors (WoW)

Yea its WoW but it explains how paper rock scissors works in WoW.

Someone should make one for Aion lol.

Volacious · 11-04-2009, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisemage

FOr mages thats wrong but for everyone else looks OK.

(as a sorc) healers are a complete nyerk to kill, even if i get the jump with an inferno they still end up winning (i dont have elvel 40 silence yet though) And sins are really easy but Rangers are impossible. And glads and temps are just a cake walk, Kiting > melee.

In my experience sins are only easy if you get the drop on them - if they unstealth on me while fighting a mob its usually game over - but that's how sins are supposed to roll.

Vs sorcs, it's usually a very close fight if levels are even. SMs not so much.

How do mages do vs chanters? I'm assuming chanters are much easier for a mage compared than a cleric.

Yael · 11-04-2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alilei

YouTube - Rock, Paper, Scissors (WoW)

Yea its WoW but it explains how paper rock scissors works in WoW.

Someone should make one for Aion lol.

Ahh great memories, World of Roguecraft probably still the best WoW video ever made. Played a warlock for 4 1/2 years (and a shaman during beta and at release...too balance it out heh)

I just hope clerics dont go down the same road rogues did because if they do I´d like to know in advance for proper rerolling options

Emprea · 11-04-2009, 09:34 PM

Personally as a SM I find sins the easiest win in 1v1. They're melee, can't heal, and don't have the HP of a templar/glad.
Rangers can be trickier, as they're range and can silence. But once the fear gets off, they still can't heal and don't have a lot of HP.

Other than that, I'd more or less agree with the OP.

Mezkh · 11-04-2009, 09:59 PM

Your problem here is that you're equating Mages, Warriors, Scouts, Healers.

But it's actually Templars, Gladiators, Assassins, Rangers, Sorcerors, Spiritmasters, Chanters and Clerics.

And yes, some of those classes have a natural edge in a 1v1 over a few, even vs some, and weak vs others.

That's the price you pay for having distinct class archetypes in an MMO.

What makes it fun is all the variables you get when you mix those classes together.

Also, when soloing, something I do a lot of, the enjoyment is there in the form a risk your counter is out there. And should you win against the odds, it's a satisfying feeling knowing you've truely outplayed someone to win the encounter. Same feeling as when you triumph over a higher leveled player

Volacious · 11-04-2009, 10:13 PM

Its not a "problem" just a conscious decision in the name of simplicity.

Mezkh · 11-04-2009, 11:21 PM

Too simple to get anything useful out of it IMO.

You're better off asking each class forums what they find easy, and what they find hard. (ignoring the obvious "everything is easy for me I rox all the sox" type responses). Some classes forums already have threads like these.

Godmodian · 11-05-2009, 01:04 AM

Glads & Temps are rock. Sorcs are paper. Sins & Rangers are scissors. Chanters are raid bosses. Clerics are chuck norris. SMs are mushrooms.

Dabrixmgp · 11-05-2009, 03:03 AM

Agree at level 50 SMs are Mushrooms because they offer nothing what so ever in group PvP. But why chanters where they are. Saying they are raid bosses would be saying chanters can rape face the same way Arms wariors did during TBC and also the same way Ret pallies raped face during WOtLK. Chanters just cant have the DPS that both of those classes put out while also haveing the self healing spells.

Slaggathor · 11-05-2009, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volacious

Is the below how its intended?

Healers: Beat tanks, lose to mages, even fight with scouts

Mages: Beat healers, lose to scouts, even fight with tanks

Tanks: Beat scouts, lose to healers, even fight with mages

Scouts: Beat casters, lose to tanks, even fight with healers.

Lots of talk of rock paper scissors, but never seen anyone actually put it down on paper.

- Vol

Healer: Beat thanks, beat sorcerers, beat scouts, get feared by sm's

11-04-2009, 03:05 PM	#1 (permalink)
Volacious Soldier Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: SoCal Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Character: Volacious Class: Templar Race: Elyos Server: Vaizel	The Rock Paper Scissors Formula Is the below how its intended? Healers: Beat tanks, lose to mages, even fight with scouts Mages: Beat healers, lose to scouts, even fight with tanks Tanks: Beat scouts, lose to healers, even fight with mages Scouts: Beat casters, lose to tanks, even fight with healers. Lots of talk of rock paper scissors, but never seen anyone actually put it down on paper. - Vol __________________

11-04-2009, 04:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
Volacious Soldier Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: SoCal Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Character: Volacious Class: Templar Race: Elyos Server: Vaizel	Yeah, I didn't mean it as an absolute outcome, more of who has an innate advantage over who. Of course, levels, gear & skill can overcome the innate advantage. (although levels seems like the trump card until 50) __________________ Last edited by Volacious; 11-04-2009 at 04:42 PM..

11-04-2009, 06:00 PM	#5 (permalink)
Volacious Soldier Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: SoCal Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Character: Volacious Class: Templar Race: Elyos Server: Vaizel	Here's the thing - if only a single of that list doesn't reflect reality then one archetype is under/over powered. Healers (clerics specifically) being a little OP is generally accepted as result of the pvp damage reduction w/o a change in healing. Hopefully a little balancing is in the works. (Basically clerics admit to being OP) Some mages say healers are a cakewalk w/ the right counters/rotation - and I tend to believe them. So if at least some mages are beating clerics, chanters, temps, glads and sins with relative ease.... what gives? This is not meant to be a QQ thread, but a discussion of what "balanced" should be in rock/paper/scissors setup w/ 4 archetypes. (ie "balanced" isn't every class is balanced vs. every class, but that they have an the intended advantage/disadvantage vs the other archetypes) __________________ Last edited by Volacious; 11-04-2009 at 06:05 PM..

11-04-2009, 09:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
Emprea Star Officer Join Date: Aug 2009 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Class: Spiritmaster Legion: Solace Race: Elyos Server: Yustiel	Personally as a SM I find sins the easiest win in 1v1. They're melee, can't heal, and don't have the HP of a templar/glad. Rangers can be trickier, as they're range and can silence. But once the fear gets off, they still can't heal and don't have a lot of HP. Other than that, I'd more or less agree with the OP. __________________ --Emprea Author of

11-04-2009, 09:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
Mezkh Officer Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Wellington NZ Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Character: Mezkh Class: Spiritmaster Legion: AvA Race: Asmodians Server: Nezekan	Your problem here is that you're equating Mages, Warriors, Scouts, Healers. But it's actually Templars, Gladiators, Assassins, Rangers, Sorcerors, Spiritmasters, Chanters and Clerics. And yes, some of those classes have a natural edge in a 1v1 over a few, even vs some, and weak vs others. That's the price you pay for having distinct class archetypes in an MMO. What makes it fun is all the variables you get when you mix those classes together. Also, when soloing, something I do a lot of, the enjoyment is there in the form a risk your counter is out there. And should you win against the odds, it's a satisfying feeling knowing you've truely outplayed someone to win the encounter. Same feeling as when you triumph over a higher leveled player __________________ lucifear: currently fear is a broken skill and any non-SM player wont deny it, it is a fact

11-04-2009, 04:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
PsiCleric Daeva Join Date: Sep 2009 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Character: Psi Class: Cleric Legion: All Out Assault Race: Asmodians Server: Triniel	Prettimuch, yeah, though no one claims Aion is balanced for 1v1. There is the widely held belief that ranged>melee at lower levels, and most of the QQ about certain classes being OP are really about the range v melee aspect being unbalanced, rather than the rock v paper v scissors aspect being unbalanced. We'll have to see if it evens out in end game.

11-04-2009, 10:13 PM	#11 (permalink)
Volacious Soldier Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: SoCal Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Character: Volacious Class: Templar Race: Elyos Server: Vaizel	Its not a "problem" just a conscious decision in the name of simplicity. __________________

11-04-2009, 11:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mezkh Officer Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Wellington NZ Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Character: Mezkh Class: Spiritmaster Legion: AvA Race: Asmodians Server: Nezekan	Too simple to get anything useful out of it IMO. You're better off asking each class forums what they find easy, and what they find hard. (ignoring the obvious "everything is easy for me I rox all the sox" type responses). Some classes forums already have threads like these. __________________ lucifear: currently fear is a broken skill and any non-SM player wont deny it, it is a fact

11-05-2009, 01:04 AM	#13 (permalink)
Godmodian Daeva Join Date: Sep 2009 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Class: Templar Race: Elyos Server: Azphel	Glads & Temps are rock. Sorcs are paper. Sins & Rangers are scissors. Chanters are raid bosses. Clerics are chuck norris. SMs are mushrooms.

11-05-2009, 03:03 AM	#14 (permalink)
Dabrixmgp Soldier Join Date: Sep 2009 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Race: Undecided Server: Undecided	Agree at level 50 SMs are Mushrooms because they offer nothing what so ever in group PvP. But why chanters where they are. Saying they are raid bosses would be saying chanters can rape face the same way Arms wariors did during TBC and also the same way Ret pallies raped face during WOtLK. Chanters just cant have the DPS that both of those classes put out while also haveing the self healing spells. Last edited by Dabrixmgp; 11-05-2009 at 03:08 AM..

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