Mace for Templar

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by isanti13

Fail Cleric is Fail.

Yeah, that's why I've been able to solo areas that most other classes (except, ironically, a Templar) couldn't manage at the same level, and why I don't get my *** handed to me in PvP. I certainly have received no complaints from any groups or guilds I've been with, or anyone I've helped.

Not to mention that we have the ability to switch weapons, FFS.

[Aroihkin]

Originally Posted by isanti13

Fail Cleric is Fail.

Yeah, people used to say that about Necros using degen in Guild Wars, too. Now it's all hex degen hex degen hex hex hex degen.

Most clerics I've seen fight never close in with anything and they suck. Following the 'norm' is not the way new PVP methods are found. I've seen Amadaeo go at it and he's smarter than to smack one of us with a mace, for example, but just about everyone else is fair game and it starts off one of his good damage chains.

Unless you think he should never do anything except while in a group, at which point gtfo of my class since people give us the same line of ********.

...That said, I'd still roll on the mace. If a cleric screams because I put my name in the hat, yeah, they can stfu... I wouldn't scream if a cleric rolled on it, especially one who isn't afraid of a little melee (they are in chain, you know), so I expect the same courtesy in return.

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Aroihkin

...That said, I'd still roll on the mace. If a cleric screams because I put my name in the hat, yeah, they can stfu... I wouldn't scream if a cleric rolled on it, especially one who isn't afraid of a little melee (they are in chain, you know), so I expect the same courtesy in return.

Thanks.

And note that we did discuss it and I have no problem with it. A heads-up would just be nice, and a discussion if there's an issue. I don't see why that might be an issue.

Oh--

Following the 'norm' is not the way new PVP methods are found.

I don't feel like I'm forging unexplored territory. Aion devs put us in chain and gave us a mace and shield and a skill chain that requires melee to use. It's retarded to hit a Templar with one and, depending on timing, an Assassin. They also made us dependent on mostly non-caster stats.

Right, so I'm then going to kite and only cast, and stack +mp and +mboost like a moron even enough mboost doesn't buff heals and MP is the most useless stat for Clerics ever.

Why the heck am I having to defend my ****, anyway? I'm not sitting around accusing (successful) Temps of failing for using anything but sword and board. Or, in this case, accusing them of actually using them.

[Aroihkin]

Originally Posted by Amadaeo

Thanks.

And note that we did discuss it and I have no problem with it. A heads-up would just be nice, and a discussion if there's an issue. I don't see why that might be an issue.

Doesn't matter who the cleric is.

I have to share rolls with assassins for swords, clerics have to share on maces meant for melee. That's my take on it. No one gets their main weapons uncontested on this game; clerics shouldn't be the exception.

Now, if the cleric really wanted it and I got it in the roll, it's not like I'd be unwilling to help do it again so that she/he could have a shot at getting it to drop for them too. But if they scream that I had no 'right' to roll on it to begin with, and throw a fit, then they can waste someone else's time.

Just my 2c.

(Not that I PUG anyway.)

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Aroihkin

Doesn't matter who the cleric is.

I have to share rolls with assassins for swords, clerics have to share on maces meant for melee. That's my take on it. No one gets their main weapons uncontested on this game; clerics shouldn't be the exception.

*shrugs* I'd feel like I'd have to speak up about me wanting to roll on shields and staffs, so.

Now, if the cleric really wanted it and I got it in the roll, it's not like I'd be unwilling to help do it again so that she/he could have a shot at getting it to drop for them too. But if they scream that I had no 'right' to roll on it to begin with, and throw a fit, then they can waste someone else's time.

I think that they're wrong for doing so, but I also think that not discussing rolling on loots up front is setting oneself up for screamings. I DO think that the attitude of, 'clerics are healers, they don't need maces/shields/etc'
-- and yes, I've heard that argument, too -- gets pretty off-putting. I'm sure it annoys Temps when they're told they can't solo and are strictly a group class.

[Adelmarh]

Originally Posted by Amadeo

Chanters are buffers, and it seems to change more to DPS later on in the game-- but (edit) chanters do actually DPS more than we do, even early on.

No. Mine, level 31, and since level 10, does not dps as much as cleric can, by far. Sorry, but you're wrong on that point. Maybe later, it really seems, yes, I don't know, but until 31, cleric's dps' highness is a joke. (a single chain combo, on my chanter : 4xx-87x ; a single of my chain combo : 26x-25x-38x)

Originally Posted by Amadeo

It's our primary weapon, I don't see why it's inappropriate at all.

Don't misread, it is apropriate for clerics to roll on maces, but templar should be prior on physical ones (since magical ones are useless for templar). By the way, who said that mace+shied is main cleric's weapon, while staff seems to be more interesting (unless about manastones slots)?

Originally Posted by Amadeo

MBoost is pretty pointless for Healers as a general rule except for some farming builds, last I heard, especially since it has no effect on healing whatsoever. The caster stats don't really help Clerics. MAccuracy is some help. Things we want are +HP and +Concentration, and maybe MBoost for Staff. However, last I knew, MBoost doesn't give us nearly the same boost that it does to other classes.

When I speak about healing, you go on dps capacity, and when I speak about dps, you speak about healing... c'mon... Caster stats does help cleric. Especially MBoost and MAccuracy, if you're on dps, and MBoost bonus is the same for everyone : +10 MBoost = 0.8% bonus damage. Of course you don't have as much as real casters... same for HL templars who go for Magical Blow, and Mind Destruction : maces gives between +70~75% damage boost on those stigmas ; Magical Blow do 1000~1200 without, and 1800~2000 with, considering crappy basic MBoost. Are you really sure clerics don't need it?

Originally Posted by Amadeo

I DO think that the attitude of, 'clerics are healers, they don't need maces/shields/etc'

Actually I didn't say that. I deeply think that templar relies far more on gear than cleric does, and since like 75% of cleric's attacks are magical, clerics don't need +attack, clerics don't need +crit (because if I didn't misunderstand you, you have only one physical attack). It's about logic.

[lucifear]

if i was tanking FT and the mace droped i would roll for it for sure, i can use, i need the damage, its extendable, why wouldnt a templar roll?
besides being a templar already sucks *** at times

if a greatsword drops a glad will probably want to roll for it
if a sword drops a glad or a sin surely will roll for it
if a mace drops a cleric surely will roll for it
if a shield drops, cleric again

we dont have the luxury of having a weapon "just for templars"

[Alizandro]

i just thought it was funny that the question was asked the way it was...who cares dude...use what you want and bash them with it.

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Adelmarh

No. Mine, level 31, and since level 10, does not dps as much as cleric can, by far. Sorry, but you're wrong on that point. Maybe later, it really seems, yes, I don't know, but until 31, cleric's dps' highness is a joke. (a single chain combo, on my chanter : 4xx-87x ; a single of my chain combo : 26x-25x-38x)

I rolled one a while back, so until then, I'll have to take a lot of different people's word for it.

By the way, who said that mace+shied is main cleric's weapon, while staff seems to be more interesting (unless about manastones slots)?

That's how we were designed by the game? o.O

When I speak about healing, you go on dps capacity, and when I speak about dps, you speak about healing...

I'm talking about both. Have you even played my class? You're telling me to take your word on how Chanters work.

c'mon... Caster stats does help cleric. Especially MBoost and MAccuracy,

A cleric needs to stack HP. When they've got multiple sets of armor and want to use a DPS build that doesn't rely on durability, they stack MBoost. Go to any forum, any cleric channel, and ask what we should stack, and the answer will almost invariably be the same: HP. Why?

Of course you don't have as much as real casters...

This, and note how you worded it: 'real' casters. We may look like casters, we may cast some things, but the way we were built isn't the same. It's actually very annoying when it comes to looking for gear, since a lot of it is +mp and +conc or +mboost, etc. That's competely pointless for most of your gameplay.

same for HL templars who go for Magical Blow, and Mind Destruction : maces gives between +70~75% damage boost on those stigmas ; Magical Blow do 1000~1200 without, and 1800~2000 with, considering crappy basic MBoost. Are you really sure clerics don't need it?

Yeah. Unless we stack a LOT of MBoost, it doesn't help us all that much. If you are stacking Mboost instead of HP, you are giving up a huge amount of survivability. In particular, the manastones to stack are +HP, period, and if you deviate from that, do it on a secondary armor set with extremely high +hp bonuses built in. Our HP should be as high as possible and every slot counts.

It may not seem to make sense, and we get this kind of question every day on our channel. 'Should I stack MBoost?' 'No, pointless for your heals and it doesn't give a boost to your damage that is so much better that you should sacrifice +hp.' 'Should I...' 'Magical Accuracy's nice if you can find it on gear if you find yourself getting resisted too much.' 'But +mp...' 'No, you should never sacrifice health for MP, ever.' 'But...' 'No. Stack +HP.' 'But that's not a Caster stat!' 'Fine. Go play a Cleric geared up with mostly those things and tell us how long you last. We aren't mages.'

Actually I didn't say that. I deeply think that templar relies far more on gear than cleric does,

Shields for Clerics, in particular, are mostly for the manastone slots and whatever else that might conveniently come on it. That sounds like I'm devaluing them, but I'm not; we just put the emphasis on something completely different than how Templars use them. Gold = More slots. More slots = more hp. More hp = much more survivability when everything, particularly players, decides that we're much tastier than you. Sacrificing a shield for a Staff gives us more damage, but at the cost of survivability. If you're grinding mobs that you know you can survive with less, that's great, but be careful if you get jumped by multiples or by players, because you'll go down much faster.

and since like 75% of cleric's attacks are magical, clerics don't need +attack, clerics don't need +crit (because if I didn't misunderstand you, you have only one physical attack).

The point of a Cleric temporarily switching to a staff is for the higher damage numbers and +crit.

I don't bother with +attack, but a +crit bonus on a mace is really nice, in my experience. When I switched from a mace with much higher +crit (that was the one that was most easily available for my level at the time), the results were much better. And our attacks may be mostly magical, but they are usually slow (until higher levels) and have variable procs. IMO, it's just as important to autoattack when it's possible to close in and not get punished by, say, Templar or Assassin skills.

Now, I have started using a staff to level, but only because I don't presently have a mace that can compare. And note that, on the staff, the crit rate is often double as a base stat-- still think physical stats are useless for Clerics? It's part of why we switch to staff for some solo things. It's absolutely not wise to use one for PvP unless one is in endgame gear, though, because we flat-out need the +concentration and +hp. If you want to survive as a Cleric, for the most part and for most of the game, you must use mace and shield, and even after endgame, you should default to them.

Staff is a Chanter's primary weapon. That's why I'd let a Chanter know I'm interested in rolling for one if it drops, and not just doing so without a heads-up. But claiming it's a primary weapon for Clerics will get you laughed right out of the forums. Same as claiming that leather is better (no one's min-maxed it well enough yet at the higher levels), and don't even try to bring up cloth (because, again, we're not real casters).

Anyway, I don't have any issues with a templar rolling on a physical statted mace. But I don't want to hear gripes if I do, either. I can actually put it to decent use, too.

And re: shield-- I've had it argued to me up and down that a Temp should get the shield drop, caster statted or no. Fortunately, I don't think most people in this topic feel that way. XD;

You bring up logic, but it seems like a lot of folks don't know my class very well, and are baffled or skeptical when I have to point out what we've learned by playing it: +HP is the most important stat, +concentration usually comes next , +magical accuracy is nice but +concentration is better and get more if you get resisted too much, +mboost is pretty pointless except for specialised builds with specialised armor in specialised situations, and +mp is useless. +Crit is really nice to have on your weapon if it drops, and it means you might not have to switch to a staff to raise your DPS for soloings if the damage stats on your mace are comparable. +Attack, more useful to warrior classes.

If this all sounds like ********, I assure you, it's not.

if i was tanking FT and the mace droped i would roll for it for sure, i can use, i need the damage, its extendable, why wouldnt a templar roll?
besides being a templar already sucks *** at times

So I've heard. I'm glad it gets better endgame, but you guys seem to get a lot of **** until you hit 40ish.

if a greatsword drops a glad will probably want to roll for it
if a sword drops a glad or a sin surely will roll for it
if a mace drops a cleric surely will roll for it
if a shield drops, cleric again

we dont have the luxury of having a weapon "just for templars"

I don't think any class does, unfortunately, except the two caster ones, do they? Assassins can use bows when they can't attack close, Rangers can use swords IIRC? I thought a sword was you guys' primary.

And I would probably pass on a physical statted shield unless there was something on it that would really benefit me somehow, since on shields at least the caster stats aren't usually as pointless. But if it's all block and +attack and such, a Temp should definitely get it.

[Terhix]

More walls of text please!

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Terhix

More walls of text please!

Sorry, dude. I didn't think I'd have to go into cleric 101.

Anyway, since I'm starting to feel like I'm assumed to be full of ****, I'll STFU. I just suggest, before I do, that folks play my class if they think I am, and stack +magical accuracy, +mboost, +mp, and so on, and go with staff as their main weapon. Especially when they hit the Abyss.

[Malkieri]

Originally Posted by Aroihkin

I have to share rolls with assassins for swords, clerics have to share on maces meant for melee. That's my take on it. No one gets their main weapons uncontested on this game; clerics shouldn't be the exception.

Just thought id point out that this is wrong. Gladiators do in fact get their main weapon uncontested: spears.

[Mano]

I don't think any class does, unfortunately, except the two caster ones, do they? Assassins can use bows when they can't attack close, Rangers can use swords IIRC? I thought a sword was you guys' primary.

i was lv 29 and one assmo sin lv 28 tried hit me with bow. i parried and receive 10 damage (no rage, shock scroll) and what kind of ranger go melee ?

[Adelmarh]

Originally Posted by Amadeo

[...]

Okay, I give up, I feel like talking to a mirror that deflects all of what I'm saying. You're certainly right, and no, I won't play cleric until NC fixes it (until 31, for what I have experienced, a decently geared cleric can't lose any 2v1 fight. Just can't. I really would like it can, but actually I never saw any single person drop a same level cleric, and neither a duo. At least a trio, and with difficulty. Hope it changes at later levels.) ; I don't want to play an OP class.

The build you're preaching for is a pure PvP build, I agree that's the best. In PvE magic staff + magic stats are clearly better -to me.

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Adelmarh

In PvE magic staff + magic stats are clearly better -to me.

Have fun at Steel Rake and Indratu with a staff and +mboost set! And give Andre a great big hug for me, too.