Mace for Templar

[Aroihkin]

Originally Posted by Malkieri

Just thought id point out that this is wrong. Gladiators do in fact get their main weapon uncontested: spears.

Good point, I always forget about those. >.>

Originally Posted by Adelmarh

Okay, I give up, I feel like talking to a mirror that deflects all of what I'm saying. You're certainly right, and no, I won't play cleric until NC fixes it (until 31, for what I have experienced, a decently geared cleric can't lose any 2v1 fight. Just can't. I really would like it can, but actually I never saw any single person drop a same level cleric, and neither a duo. At least a trio, and with difficulty. Hope it changes at later levels.) ; I don't want to play an OP class.

They start off strong and taper off towards endgame, just like sorcs and such, IIRC. By endgame we're just as tough to kill as a Cleric is, you realize, and it's endgame we're balanced for. Isn't that why we keep grinding to level despite Templar being so comparatively wimpy until 30something and then our 40s where we start to really shine?

Originally Posted by Adelmarh

The build you're preaching for is a pure PvP build, I agree that's the best. In PvE magic staff + magic stats are clearly better -to me.

You've just admitted you won't play a cleric, so how would you know? Would you really solo PVE with only your greatsword and, I dunno, +Parry stones? We're more damage with the GS than they are with the staff, so +crit or +attack isn't a fair comparison, and the argument seems to be that he shouldn't be using +HP...

I mean, you could do it, but it would kinda suck IMO.

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Aroihkin

You've just admitted you won't play a cleric, so how would you know? Would you really solo PVE with only your greatsword and, I dunno, +Parry stones? We're more damage with the GS than they are with the staff, so +crit or +attack isn't a fair comparison, and the argument seems to be that he shouldn't be using +HP...

I mean, you could do it, but it would kinda suck IMO.

A cleric has very little room for error in full mboost + staff post level 25ish or so, and forget about bosses. And if someone trains extra mobs on you, or the other side rifts in near you and jumps you, you're probably dead. Gimping your HP makes you too squishy to take multiple damage and your damage will not be enough to take on a full party or even half of one-- you have no AoE and your highest-damage chain takes too long. Your heals will not keep up (as your health will drop much faster since you have so much less of it) and you will be so busy desperately healing yourself that you will have little time to attack.

Endgame high-level stuff can allow for some mboost builds, but that's endgame, and you can guarantee that's gonna be minmaxed and fine-tuned and your gear gives you big hp bonuses by then anyway-- and you're still gimping survivability, so you'd better know what you're doing.

I certainly did not solo Kyola Temple as a level 30 with a staff (crit on staff, full +hp on everything else) until I knew what I was doing.

[Aroihkin]

Originally Posted by Amadaeo

A cleric has very little room for error in full mboost + staff post level 25ish or so, and forget about bosses. And if someone trains extra mobs on you, or the other side rifts in near you and jumps you, you're probably dead. Gimping your HP makes you too squishy to take multiple damage and your damage will not be enough to take on a full party or even half of one-- you have no AoE and your highest-damage chain takes too long. Your heals will not keep up (as your health will drop much faster since you have so much less of it) and you will be so busy desperately healing yourself that you will have little time to attack.

Endgame high-level stuff can allow for some mboost builds, but that's endgame, and you can guarantee that's gonna be minmaxed and fine-tuned and your gear gives you big hp bonuses by then anyway-- and you're still gimping survivability, so you'd better know what you're doing.

Not to mention right now having a shield = damage reduction upon blocking. You guys don't stack shield defense, but the shield gives some block and that's a chance to block a physical attack even while casting. It's better than taking the hit to the face, certainly, especially with a blue (40% reduction, so 60% of the damage then gets applied to your armor, etc, then you) with a few enchantment levels on it to make it 44%+.

Clerics can't kite like a sorcerer for example can, all they have is Root -- which breaks the moment the target takes damage. This means they get hit, which is why they're in chain, and is why a shield is more than just manastone slot-space.

As a Templar, I fully understand the benefits to a shield, even when my shield skills are on cooldown. If something is hitting me with physical damage and it's not something I can just face-roll in a few hits, I stick to my S&B... and I won't fault a cleric for doing mace and shield with good block/etc stats on it.

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Aroihkin

As a Templar, I fully understand the benefits to a shield, even when my shield skills are on cooldown. If something is hitting me with physical damage and it's not something I can just face-roll in a few hits, I stick to my S&B... and I won't fault a cleric for doing mace and shield with good block/etc stats on it.

This is one of the shields that best suits Clerics, btw, and should be gotten at level 50. The other is this one. :3 I assume they'd be useful for Temps for the exact same reasons.

[Vabjekf]

neither of those have conc 0-0 i always look for conc on my shields as a cleric.

and clerics dont need block as i doubt they will be getting the ~2.2k block required for it to be usefull

[Adelmarh]

Originally Posted by Amadaeo

Your heals will not keep up (as your health will drop much faster since you have so much less of it) and you will be so busy desperately healing yourself that you will have little time to attack.

Try chanter, so you can speak about being too busy to heal yourself instead of dps and about seeing you health drop faster than you can heal ; if this happens to you on your cleric, then you're doing it wrong, sir. Chanter has no instant heal, no big heal, no fast heal, no group heal. Just a lower version of Healing Light than you have on Cleric. Cleric has Holy Servant, which is instant dps, so you can dps while healing yourself. Chanters don't have, but instead, have to dps between two heals. Really, try chanter, you will have your hopes dashed. Cleric is easy mode of priest branch.

Game design offers to both priest classes to use maces, shields, AND staves. If you want to solo PvE, staves are better, not for knockdown chance, but for MBoost, MAccuracy and Parry (which are higher than on a mace generally). But I'm too dumb to think and to have a clear idea of what I would do if I rolled cleric, it seems (note that I wondered what would I do for each class, I prefer not to say all that I would do because I would be considered as an E.T.).

Originally Posted by Aroihkin

Clerics can't kite like a sorcerer for example can, all they have is Root -- which breaks the moment the target takes damage.

You mean this one? yay, poor clerics, buh. They just can prevent anyone to flee, until they run out of mp. How many times this one wrote my death when I tried to flee from 15 persons-zerg. "*Charge* What the fu... *healing pot* *too late*"
To sum up. Clerics have the best heals, they have an almost chainable root, and they can dps more than a warrior class, and the other priest, which is supposed to dps. Poor, poor clerics.

Stop kidding us guys lol. Please.

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Adelmarh

Try chanter, so you can speak about being too busy to heal yourself instead of dps and about seeing you health drop faster than you can heal ; if this happens to you on your cleric, then you're doing it wrong, sir. Chanter has no instant heal, no big heal, no fast heal, no group heal. Just a lower version of Healing Light than you have on Cleric.

Sigh. If DPS is applying enough well-timed pressure and Root is on cooldown and/or breaks, it can be difficult to use said big heals. In fact, just about every PVP guide -- for and against Clerics -- I've looked up states that over-relying on a long-cast, easily interruptible big heal is something that often kills Clerics who mistime that heal-- IE, coming right out of a stun, or after one hard-hitting attack, just so that the other class can interrupt it again or lock you down a second time. (That's what a pot is for, granted, but pots can't be spammed, either.)

It's not an issue when the strategy of an opponent is, of course, to faceroll. But against someone who knows what he's doing? I'm not doing it wrong if I feel some pressure. I should, that's part of PVPing. You know, challenge.

Cleric has Holy Servant, which is instant dps, so you can dps while healing yourself.

Holy servant is lousy DPS. Holy Servant also doesn't stop any smart opponent from continuing to attack me. I can't reliably stun, I can't silence, I have /one/ twelve-second-cooldown root, I can't Fear. What is stopping you from smacking me or flying circles around me or kiting me? Clerics not a shutdown class, and I have to wonder why you're making it sound like they are. Are you tying your hands behind your back? Is that why you won't attack? Twelve seconds is a long time in a PVP fight.

By the way, a Holy Servant's attack breaks Root. So don't try to claim that I can permaroot you, HS you, attack you, and spam big heals all the time, while you are helpless, because that's not how Cleric skills work.

Chanters don't have, but instead, have to dps between two heals.

This is not a comment on Chanter play, but Clerics do, too. A smart opponent will try to make it so that we have to spend too much time healing ourselves at the cost of attacking (and thus waste our better heals), and/or try to make us attack too much at the cost of healing (and thus risk dying from the big attack they've been saving).

And dude, don't tell me how to play my Class when you insist up and down that a staff/+mboost manastone setup is the way a Cleric should be set up, especially for PVE, and that that seems the most logical. That is guaranteed instafail once you get past level 30. A big reason why Clerics last as long as they do is because they have so much HP. That's probably more game-changing, in my opinion, than our heals are.

Anyway, the argument of, 'If you win you're OP and if you lose you fail' is such nonsense. You don't even know much about Clerics or their skills or their damage or their gear, though you act like you do, without actually bothering to read the plentiful FAQs. It's really easy! It's the forum in the same subsection as 'Chanter' and it's got a couple stickied topics right at the top. :3

That takes some gall. I don't tell you how to play a Chanter or a Templar, and I really don't tell you how to do so in ways that would gimp your gameplay.

It really boggles me that you have this issue, because endgame Templars and endgame Clerics actually end up as very similar classes, down to part of their strategy -- and their build -- being to attempt to outlast their opponent by taking more damage over time than their opponent can. That's why neither class can easily beat the other, we're both inclined to shift the battle to the long term.

I'd've expected some solidarity, not resentment.

Oh:

they have an almost chainable root, and they can dps more than a warrior class,

You, sir, are a liar. We can do neither.

-------------------------

Originally Posted by Vabjekf

neither of those have conc 0-0 i always look for conc on my shields as a cleric.

and clerics dont need block as i doubt they will be getting the ~2.2k block required for it to be usefull

I look for it on jewelry, since it seems to be more consistent to find there than on really good shields. o.o

No point in getting a shield for block, no. Is nice but not the stat we should look for. Damage reduction, +HP, conc if it's there, mres, etc.

[isanti13]

Did you know there were cleric forums? Try posting about clerics there...

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by isanti13

Did you know there were cleric forums? Try posting about clerics there...

Okay. Next time he lies about them, I'll just shrug.

[Encrypt]

I've skipped most of posts in this thread so sorry if my post comes out sounding like anyone elses.

First of all, I usually use 1H Sword, just because of the convenience, good crit modifier, fast attack speed, normally more viable stats than a mace for me. But if i was to get a mace that had ALOT more damage than my sword and had decent enough stats (i wouldn't mind +HP or just some +PATTACK) i would use it, just because of the fact of availability, if i feel i have a better weapon available, I will use it and i don't care if i get cryed at by people saying "you should be using a sword because it does this, this, this, this and this" or people cry at me because i give them a bit of competition when their rolling. At the end of the day the sad fact is, if you join a group to do a raid/instance chances are high that there's going to be someone that needs at least one piece of gear you do and everyone knows this when going into the instance but when it comes down to the rolling and if you win, they always get butthurt.

I don't mind Assassins rolling on the same things as me because really they need the weapon as much as i do, so it's fair game. One thing that kind of annoys me though is Gladiators that have used a 2Her like a Pole-Arm or GS ALL GAME and when MY sword drops (yes i said MY) then they suddenly get the urge to go dual-wielding, i don't know maybe it's a side-effect of the orangey glow from the "Fabled" item text that makes people act retarded. Also i hope Clerics don't mind me rolling on Maces because really, based on the drop-rates i've witnessed in this game, when it come's to a weapon drop, if it's a 1Her and i can use it, it's like a glimmer of light in this dark depressing game.

just my 2 cents

[Amadaeo]

Originally Posted by Encrypt

Also i hope Clerics don't mind me rolling on Maces because really, based on the drop-rates i've witnessed in this game, when it come's to a weapon drop, if it's a 1Her and i can use it, it's like a glimmer of light in this dark depressing game.

just my 2 cents

As long as I don't get yelled at for rolling on a shield or a mace that is not weighted toward casters. :3

[deathcoy]

in my opinion... cleric should get top priority for mace... Temps have a wide variety of weapons to wield, they wont really lose out if they let the cleric have the mace... on the other hand if you roll on a cleric's mace, basically you're destroying every goddamn speck of hope of him getting decent equipments... and that to me is pretty selfish... clerics can only use 2 weapons, mace and staff, i bet no one wants this game full of staff wielding clerics that are cannon fodder quality... even if its a +hp + crit, i believe clerics should get it...

shield on the other hand is a different matter...

[Encrypt]

Originally Posted by deathcoy

in my opinion... cleric should get top priority for mace... Temps have a wide variety of weapons to wield, they wont really lose out if they let the cleric have the mace... on the other hand if you roll on a cleric's mace, basically you're destroying every goddamn speck of hope of him getting decent equipments... and that to me is pretty selfish... clerics can only use 2 weapons, mace and staff, i bet no one wants this game full of staff wielding clerics that are cannon fodder quality... even if its a +hp + crit, i believe clerics should get it...

shield on the other hand is a different matter...

I must've missed something up to level 47, we have a wide variety of weapons?

Templar's can only use 2 weapons practically, GS doesn't count because we can't fulfil our class role with a GS. We have Swords & Maces, we have to compete with Glads also for swords, and assassins. Then we have to compete with clerics for maces. so....yeah, We have to struggle as hard to get our gear.

[deathcoy]

Originally Posted by Encrypt

I must've missed something up to level 47, we have a wide variety of weapons?

Templar's can only use 2 weapons practically, GS doesn't count because we can't fulfil our class role with a GS. We have Swords & Maces, we have to compete with Glads also for swords, and assassins. Then we have to compete with clerics for maces. so....yeah, We have to struggle as hard to get our gear.

well, since GS doesnt count, then staffs dont count, so cleric is fighting with temps for mace while temps are fighting with clerics for mace and sins for swords... imo cleric's position is worse with only 1 reasonable weapon... better chances of fighting for 2 weapons than 1 weapon right?

besides, in a party, cleric is always a must, while dual wield glads which are rare as hell and sins are more of a "fill in", in other words its easy to cater to securing your sword rolling...

[Adelmarh]

You can think I'm a liar if you want (cleric does dps more than templar, wich is a warrior class, just does.), but I'm only speaking about what I'm experiencing every day with clerics in PvE and PvP.
In PvE, I get ks'd by clerics, and almost as easily than by casters or assassins, I can be on my chanter or on my templar, that's the same, mob and loots go to the cleric.
In PvP, If I cross the path of an elyos cleric, I flee instead even trying to kill him ; the last I saw, we were 3 on him, and we tried hard, even with well placed stuns, we got him, but damn (he was -2). I hope, that you can't dps, I really hope. It would be cheated, I mean... more than it already is. I always hope not to get in range of a cleric, or I'll die, because of obvious issue of the fight, and because of the root, which will impose the obvious fight to me.

That's all. I saw it last month/week, everyday, I saw it yesterday, I will this night, I will tomorrow, and I will next week/month. Those are facts, not lies or faeries. Now please open your eyes.