[Synn3r]

aga123, on 22 March 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

ITT: Deliq says something multiple people agree with, did anyone check the news for sightings of flying pigs or snow in hell?

Deliq just got the troll reputation because of that dw thingie, which has actually been his biggest mistake (and he admitted it later). Most of the other stuff he says makes sense, but the majority of people like to jump on the bandwagon.

On topic, again with this assa-glad comparisons? I've read so many inaccurate statements i'd need a wot to point them all out, and cba

Just one thing though, why did u choose assassin if you don't like ganking and would rather have a "fair" fight were both opponents get to see each other before engaging?
You know, i started as a sin aswell, it took me 40 levels to realize the class was balanced around the gank factor and therefore it couldn't be as strong in normal pvp scenarios (what would be the point in rolling any other class if it was?).
Since i've never considered ganking a form of "pvp", i took my decision and switched class, if you can't accept the drawbacks of being able to pick your fights i suggest you assassin players do the same.

[Wolfen]

Because the Assassin was (and still is) a really strong 1v1 class, but some totally stupid/senseless things of this game screw him over, mainly the mres/maccu mechanic for his "controls" (but then, even random KDs from classes that are immune to stuns/wintry armor/mau form/etc, even if those things are counterable, unlike the mres issue).

So, sorry, but i really can't see a Gladiator crying about his class when it's one of the most facerolling things ever made.

This post has been edited by wolfen: 23 March 2012 - 08:50 AM

[Synn3r]

wolfen, on 23 March 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Because the Assassin was (and still is) a really strong 1v1 class, but some totally stupid/senseless things of this game screw him over, mainly the mres/maccu mechanic for his "controls" (but then, even random KDs from classes that are immune to stuns/wintry armor/mau form/etc, even if those things are counterable, unlike the mres issue).

So, sorry, but i really can't see a Gladiator crying about his class when it's one of the most facerolling things ever made.

Where am i crying? If anything it's you assassins crying all over this topic.
Assassin is no more difficult than any other class, strategy-wise. The only thing that makes it more difficult is the micromanaging of many short cds on the move (while sorc can use most of his skills just standing still), and since i believe skills should come from your head and not from how fast u can press 20 keys rather than 10, i don't really feel like i'm playing an "easy" class compared to your imba hard assassin tbh.
If i wanted to show how pro i am pressing 88 keys i'd be playing piano rather than a mmorpg, don't you think?

And btw those "stupid/senseless" things are there exactly to prevent assassin from being as strong as u believe/want it to be. We can argue about how stupid it is to balance out classes using RNG mechanics of course, i agree it's far from being the best way, but you can't expect to be as strong as any other class in open 1vs1 or 1vs2/3, while still keeping the ability of picking up your fights and exploit the suprise effect.

This post has been edited by Synn3r: 23 March 2012 - 09:19 AM

[Kyoai]

Synn3r, on 23 March 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

And btw those "stupid/senseless" things are there exactly to prevent assassin from being as strong as u believe/want it to be. We can argue about how stupid it is to balance out classes using RNG mechanics of course, i agree it's far from being the best way, but you can't expect to be as strong as any other class in open 1vs1 or 1vs2/3, while still keeping the ability of picking up your fights and exploit the suprise effect.

There are several CC-skills, like knockdown skills, that work all the time and can be used with a single button.
How can you think giving some classes skills that work close to 80~100% of the time (on-demand KDs and magic class CCs) and giving other classes the same or worse (KD>Stun bc of duration, animation and not macc dependant) CC-skills that that require heavy preparation (runes that need to be carved while in melee range) and have only an average success rate of 50%~40% on non-MR-builds/0% on MR-builds is fair?

You think having only a 40~50% base chance to land your CC-skills on non-MR targets is in order to keep assassins balanced?
What about sorcs or SMs, who have waaaay more, better, stronger and way easier to use CC-skills and have a way better default hit rate?
What exactly would be so bad if overall CC-skills from melees hit much better than they do now?
Ranged classes would still have their huge arsenal of slowdowns and roots to keep melees away but at least it would give melees a way better chance, right now fighting long ranged classes goes *slowdown* -> "greater healing pot, 30 sec cooldown* -> *another slowdown* -> *not able to catch long ranged classes because long ranged class just runs away while doing damage skills while moving and every time the melee pots/dispells his slowdown/root another slowdown/root is ready*.
Its ridicilous how many roots and slowdowns ranged classes have (especially sorcs) while there are way too few ways to counter them and even if you manage to catch up to them there is always some fck-u-skill ranged classes can pull out, like Wintry armor, Blind Leap, Instafear, bind/blind-skills or 10k-hp-shields that keep you occupied until their CC-skills are ready again.



Btw i think we should go back to the original topic : Yay, 50% evasion.
Any news if it was a change with 3.0 or was it a custom change from these servers?

This post has been edited by Kyoai: 23 March 2012 - 09:49 AM

[Wolfen]

Synn3r, on 23 March 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Where am i crying? If anything it's you assassins crying all over this topic.
Assassin is no more difficult than any other class, strategy-wise. The only thing that makes it more difficult is the micromanaging of many short cds on the move (while sorc can use most of his skills just standing still), and since i believe skills should come from your head and not from how fast u can press 20 keys rather than 10, i don't really feel like i'm playing an "easy" class compared to your imba hard assassin tbh.
If i wanted to show how pro i am pressing 88 keys i'd be playing piano rather than a mmorpg, don't you think?

And btw those "stupid/senseless" things are there exactly to prevent assassin from being as strong as u believe/want it to be. We can argue about how stupid it is to balance out classes using RNG mechanics of course, i agree it's far from being the best way, but you can't expect to be as strong as any other class in open 1vs1 or 1vs2/3, while still keeping the ability of picking up your fights and exploit the suprise effect.

I never said anything about you crying, it was referred to Deliq which instantly started with the usual "OMG another OP class may get something even more OP, why they never give anything to our underpowered Gladiator?", which is rather pathetic.

This is not totally true, strategy wise the Assassin could be one of the hardest class, since there are alot of I-Win skills that he need to counter, as in, he doesn't have OP skills or random things to save his ass when he makes mistakes (like landing a random KD right after wasting AH on a shield). As in, nowadays he must do everything in less than 20 seconds (bait remove shock, cover himself from the enemy counter, do his combo) or OOA wears off and it's over.

Again with the ability of picking up fights, apart the fact that Hide is completely useless because of the huge amount of radar cheaters, being able to kill/gank unprepared/exping/unscrolled/lowbie/newbie players is nothing to be proud about, and for sure won't make your class OP, hence you can't balance a class basing yourself on this aspect.

As in, a stat which is able to make a class nothing more than a close-range-dps-tool is simply stupid and should be fixed asap. The assassin is still a very strong class in the hand of a right player, and it only needs a small game mechanics fix to be what it used to be, meanwhile a geared Gladiator could be dangerous in the hand of every player (because of the insane totally random unskill based knockdown/silence proc), and this is just wrong in my opinion (then, ofc, a skilled Gladiator will always be better than a newbie one).

So, apart the fact that the first to start crying was a Gladiator (this is also why i started to reply), the assassin is still a very powerful class if played right and IF he has enough maccu to land his "controls".
I don't know wth NCWest did when they tweaked the EU/NA version of this game (less PvE damage, drops, etc), but in Korea assassins got a maccu boost on their skills since 2.7 (we never got this boost) and another in 3.0, and this made the class balanced during fair 1v1s.

[aga123]

wolfen, on 23 March 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

(but then, even random KDs from classes that are immune to stuns/wintry armor/mau form/etc, even if those things are counterable, unlike the mres issue).

Glads are immune to mau form? Do they have some hidden aura which reduces MS by 40%, attack damage by 25% and attack speed by 25%? If any class is immune to Mau form it's sins, with sprint, which is constant +20% ms.

[Wolfen]

aga123, on 23 March 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Glads are immune to mau form? Do they have some hidden aura which reduces MS by 40%, attack damage by 25% and attack speed by 25%? If any class is immune to Mau form it's sins, with sprint, which is constant +20% ms.

No, it's not what i meant, i meant that random KDs from classes with UD, Mau form from a ranged class, Wintry Armor from Sorceress, etc, are "OP/stupid" things against an assassin, yet, they can be countered, unlike the maccu/mres mechanic (which is the biggest issue right now).

Then, Charge and two roots are better counters than Sprinting against MAU Form, the only real better "tool" that an assassin has is Spiral Slash (combined with Ambush).

This post has been edited by wolfen: 23 March 2012 - 10:12 AM

[aga123]

wolfen, on 23 March 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Then, Charge and two roots are better counters than Sprinting against MAU Form, the only real better "tool" that an assassin has is Spiral Slash (+ Ambush).

Yeah, but for every class where charge is especially useful against, they all have multiple couters sleeps/roots/fear. I agree with you that glads are faceroll, but only if they get in people faces, which against sorcs/SM and sometimes clerics just does not happen because they are massive counters.

Glads and sins are fine they don't need any buffs or nerfs, they both do what was intended. Rangers and sorcs could use a few tweaks though...If this 50% evasion thing is true (which I highly doubt) rangers will be completely OP in every possible sense.

[Wolfen]

aga123, on 23 March 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Yeah, but for every class where charge is especially useful against, they all have multiple couters sleeps/roots/fear. I agree with you that glads are faceroll, but only if they get in people faces, which against sorcs/SM and sometimes clerics just does not happen because they are massive counters.

Glads and sins are fine they don't need any buffs or nerfs, they both do what was intended. Rangers and sorcs could use a few tweaks though...If this 50% evasion thing is true (which I highly doubt) rangers will be completely OP in every possible sense.

In fact, SMs and Sorcs are "OP" too, but at least the Sorcerer require some "more" skills in order to be played right (even if sometimes they both could be an easier fight as assassin).
Imo, the Gladiator has alot of counters too if he knows how to use them, and on top of that, he even has random KDs.

Now, i don't know what was the last time you played Aion, but now almost everyone has around 1.8k/2.3k mres, which means that Assassins fails almost all their runes, which is of course not a problem against newbies, but start to be annoying when you face skilled people.

So, in my opinion, this maccu/mres mechanic needs somekind of fix if you want to consider the Assassin a fine class, as in, they need to remove random KDs aswell.

About the evasion cap, i also think that it's not true, but if it is we will still have Weaking Blow and OOA (on the worse case) to counter rangers (so, for us, it would still be a good thing).

This post has been edited by wolfen: 23 March 2012 - 10:48 AM

[MissJupiter]

those "OP" roots&slow from gladis, and slows get resisted as much as your sin tools. same story for lockdown.

Random silence godstone from spear is hardly more OP than random para + silence godstone from each sword or daggers

This post has been edited by MissJupiter: 23 March 2012 - 11:01 AM

[Wolfen]

We could say that they get resisted less because of Slaughter (which is always on) and more when the Assassin has OOA on (20s 5 min CD).
But still, almost all Assassin's tools are magical, meanwhile the Gladiator still has a physical Aether Hold (why Assassin's one is magical?), an insta knockdown skill and random KDs.

I don't really think that anymore, since every Gladiator always procs KD + silence on his first Cleave.

This post has been edited by wolfen: 23 March 2012 - 11:15 AM

[aga123]

wolfen, on 23 March 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

In fact, SMs and Sorcs are "OP" too, but at least the Sorcerer require some "more" skills in order to be played right (even if sometimes they both could be an easier fight as assassin).
Imo, the Gladiator has alot of counters too if he knows how to use them, and on top of that, he even has random KDs.

Now, i don't know what was the last time you played Aion, but now almost everyone has around 1.8k/2.3k mres, which means that Assassins fails almost all their runes, which is of course not a problem against newbies, but start to be annoying when you face skilled people.

Sorcs and SM can both remove ankle snare and pot the other root (if they don't get resisted (which they more then likely will). And you obviously have no idea how hard it is for a glad to get in melee range of a sorc or SM. When I was lvling up my SM i went to gelk and fought a glad with full mres and AP gear and I had some crappy tome with very low M.acc, but I killed him because I just ran around spamming erosion and dispells and he could do nothing.

wolfen, on 23 March 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

So, in my opinion, this maccu/mres mechanic needs somekind of fix if you want to consider the Assassin a fine class, as in, they need to remove random KDs aswell.

Are you seriously still whining that sins are underpowered....Buffing in hide was one of the biggest changes to the game and made sins incredible gankers, and then they buffed rune detonating skills to give them more m.acc, not sure exectly how much but my SM with 1800 mres never resists sins stuns/AH.

[Wolfen]

aga123, on 23 March 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Sorcs and SM can both remove ankle snare and pot the other root (if they don't get resisted (which they more then likely will). And you obviously have no idea how hard it is for a glad to get in melee range of a sorc or SM. When I was lvling up my SM i went to gelk and fought a glad with full mres and AP gear and I had some crappy tome with very low M.acc, but I killed him because I just ran around spamming erosion and dispells and he could do nothing.



Are you seriously still whining that sins are underpowered....Buffing in hide was one of the biggest changes to the game and made sins incredible gankers, and then they buffed rune detonating skills to give them more m.acc, not sure exectly how much but my SM with 1800 mres never resists sins stuns/AH.

I played a Gladiator myself and i know how they works, meanwhile they can remove ankle snare and pot the other root you still have Earthquake Wave, not to mention that those tools are just a plus to your main goal, which is to make them use Remove Shock and then AH/insta KD him.

I'm saying that Assassins are fine WHEN they land their runes, which is almost impossible nowadays. Then you're clearly misinformed because they got no boost on runes on the EU/NA version (only on Ambush), which is really the main assassin issue.

As in, buffing in Hide may be useless against a skilled player because he can still hear you.

This post has been edited by wolfen: 23 March 2012 - 11:34 AM

[aga123]

wolfen, on 23 March 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

I played a Gladiator myself and i know how they works, meanwhile they can remove ankle snare and pot the other root you still have Earthquake Wave, not to mention that those tools are just a plus to your main goal, which is to make them use Remove Shock and then AH/insta KD him.

I'm saying that Assassins are fine WHEN they land their runes, which is almost impossible nowadays. Then you're clearly misinformed because they got no boost on runes on the EU/NA version (only on Ambush), which is really the main assassin issue.

As in, buffing in Hide may be useless against a skilled player because he can still hear you.

So you think earthquake wave isn't magical?

[Wolfen]

aga123, on 23 March 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

So you think earthquake wave isn't magical?

It is, but i thought that we we're talking about when they don't get resisted. As in, when they get resisted the Gladiator still has a fair chance because of the physical AH/insta KD (not to mention the random KDs), meanwhile the Assassin will have 20% more chance to land his tools on the best case.

This post has been edited by wolfen: 23 March 2012 - 11:43 AM

[Kyoai]

Quote

Gladiator still has a fair chance because of the physical AH

Their Aether Hold is physical? Wow. I want that too!

aga123, on 23 March 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Are you seriously still whining that sins are underpowered....Buffing in hide was one of the biggest changes to the game and made sins incredible gankers

That was before everyone had easy access to eternal armor and every was running around with less than 1600 MR

Quote

and then they buffed rune detonating skills to give them more m.acc, not sure exectly how much but my SM with 1800 mres never resists sins stuns/AH.

No, they never buffed rune detonating skills. Stop making stuff up.
Korea might have recieved a rune macc update with their 2.7 patch (according to an older forum post on the korean site it was something between +200 to +500 macc for all rune skills), EU and NA servers never recieved that update so we're still screwing around with 1100 macc and thus a default 50~60% rune fail rate against non-MR targets.

I dont know what you're doing wrong with your 1800 MR, technically this is a 60~70% resist rate against assassins rune skills (without their OOA) so either you're incredibly unlucky or the assasin had OOA up (in which case the best defense is just throwing a slowdown/root on him and kite him for 10~15 seconds).

To every level 55 caster/cleric class who thinks assa rune hit rate is ok try this:
-Unequip your caster accessories and all your armor equipments that grant MA
-use a blue level 45~48 weapon (level 45~48 book/orb/mace/staff that has no MA-bonus)
-you are not allowed to use MA mana stones or MA-buffs
Now try fighting enemies with eternal pvp armor/accessories who possibly use MR-builds/MR-skills.
This is how effective our CC-skills are at the moment.

This post has been edited by Kyoai: 23 March 2012 - 12:24 PM

[MissJupiter]

wolfen, on 23 March 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

We could say that they get resisted less because of Slaughter (which is always on) and more when the Assassin has OOA on (20s 5 min CD).
But still, almost all Assassin's tools are magical, meanwhile the Gladiator still has a physical Aether Hold (why Assassin's one is magical?), an insta knockdown skill and random KDs.

I don't really think that anymore, since every Gladiator always procs KD + silence on his first Cleave.

its pretty false that gladis procs kd + silence on first cleave, it actually rarely happens. very, very rarely <.< extremly rarely.

[aga123]

wolfen, on 23 March 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

It is, but i thought that we we're talking about when they don't get resisted. As in, when they get resisted the Gladiator still has a fair chance because of the physical AH/insta KD (not to mention the random KDs), meanwhile the Assassin will have 20% more chance to land his tools on the best case.

Sins still have 4 teleport to target skills, glads have 1 which is a stigma almost nobody uses since it's animation is very slow, only has 15m range and you have to equip 2 pretty useless stigmas to use it.

[Kyoai]

aga123, on 23 March 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Sins still have 4 teleport to target skills

But all of them have several bugs, cause rubberband-effects/position lags and can cause Oor-messages pretty often, so i wouldn't really call them really reliable.

[Wolfen]

MissJupiter, on 23 March 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

its pretty false that gladis procs kd + silence on first cleave, it actually rarely happens. very, very rarely <.< extremly rarely.

So rare that everytime there is a Gladiator hitting me it happens, you really should try to PvP against a group that has 3 or so Gladiators meanwhile you don't have UD on, you won't be able to do anything because you will be under perma silence/kd.

aga123, on 23 March 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Sins still have 4 teleport to target skills, glads have 1 which is a stigma almost nobody uses since it's animation is very slow, only has 15m range and you have to equip 2 pretty useless stigmas to use it.

For 4 teleport skills i think you mean Ambush, Dash Attack, Dash and Slash, Spiral Slash?
Apart the fact that two of them are Stigmas (one advanced with 5 other stigma requisites) and one is 4k a DP, Ambush pretty much bug out IF the target is jumping, Dash Attack and Dash and Slash only close the gap between the target but won't let you hit him if he keeps kiting (because of the animation).

So, counting that not everyone uses Dash and Slash and that Spiral Slash is a 4k DP, we could say that we have only two skills to close the gap and that only one "teleports" us and stuns the target, but it may bug out if the target is jumping.

Don't get me wrong, they're nice tools, but they won't help much if the target resists all our stuns.