[Neb]

This will be an opinion based thing, but generally, what do you (personally) consider a 'sandbox' game to be?

For me I honestly can't really say I've ever played an MMO I'd call a 'sandbox'. I'm not quite sure what that kind of game would look like. Was wondering what you jerks thought.


inb4 wall of DK typo text

[dirtyklingon]

lineage 2 eve and swg were different example of sandbox type games to one extent or another.

though swg also had themnepark stuff.

[Neb]

That is not a wall of text. You're slacking DK.

Get on it.

[Nobody]

Sandbox implies that players are modifying and helping to create the world and that they're basically driving play. Games that have sandbox elements are those like SWG, Eve, and Minecraft. Minecraft is the most sandbox type game I've seen recently I guess, although it's not an mmo game (I have seen multi-player get up to 100 people on a Minecraft server though).

ArcheAge has sandbox elements because it's got a continent where you can place houses wherever you want and the end game is supposed to be player driven sieges and territorial control. What it ends up being - who knows. It is probably the closest to SWG right now because it's got the whole quest based thing leading up to the max level.

Most mmo games don't try to be sandboxes - they like to drive where players go at max level more than a sandbox would do.

[dirtyklingon]

actually that's not what sandbox means in my experience snoozle.


sandbox isn't about modifying the map liek you might in minecraft or with player cities in swg.



it explicitly means player driven play. where as opposed ot themepark stuff liek questing and semi linear dungeon grind of the eq/wow model, instead it's the interactions between players through pvp and economy, which drives the ongoing play and longevity of the game.


to achieve this a game needs systems like l2's clanwar/pk system, and destructive craft based itemization(ie such as perma gear durability in swg pre nge or l2's over enchant system).

as opposed to grinding dungeons for bind on pick up/equip items that can be easily repaired and last as long as until the next teir of gear is released.


while certainly a sandbox game can have gear come from dungeons, there is usually some other element to the dungeons/pve, such as being able to pvp over the bosses, or the boss dropping only the key mats instead of whole pieces.


there are themepark games with sandbox elements, such as daoc, which has hard player factions and such but the endgame is based around player driven activities such as pvp.


archeage seems to be a bit more sandbox than themepark, however not because you can build houses and castles, but because the endgame activities are player driven, and despite having player factions, you cna choose to interact with members of that faction how you choose(even choosing to pk them or steal from them).

minecraft is a lego sim, and skyrim is a open world rpg, both are considered sandboxes, but different types. where as skyrim would be a themepark game if it were copy pastaed to mmo genre, minecraft would become a world builder if it were imported to mmo's.

swg isn't a sandbox because you can make player cities, so much as those player cities are completely controlled by the players themselves.


lotro has player housing/cities as well, but it's far from a sandbox.

[Neb]

Do you really think a 'player driven' MMO can work given today's Western MMO player base? Not exactly the most open minded and uhhh we'll say 'creative' crowd.

ArcheAge to me sounds like a great game in of itself. Slap the Western MMO crowd on there and it gives me same feeling TESO does. The things I do like will either be marginalized or scrapped entirely. The stuff I don't like will be touted, lauded and release in a general state of 'meh' because the game isn't mean to be played that way.

[dirtyklingon]

i think the western mmo playerbase needs more player driven mmo's after the past 6+ years of wow clonism.


however it needs to be taken seriously and done in a manner which is not as utterly alien as eve or as dry as perpetuum.


devs who engage in such an endeavour also need to completely ignore the vocal and loud segment of players that demand endgame dungeon gear progression and instanced pvp with ladders for gear.


a solid AAA quality player driven game, with solid combat and controls, with a good maount of starting content (read fair sized open world map), solid systems for interacting with other players, and good post launch development(ie expanding activities and systems, expanding the world map), i think would not only thrive in the western mmo market, but even thrive and grow.

one thing is for sure, doing the same dull and tired 2d dungeon gear grinding model over and over again certainly is NOT succeeding here. i think it's unfair to blame the sub model, when it's really the rampant wow clonism which is at fault. when all the latest games do little more than offer subpar versions of activities found in an existing high quality game, why bother to stick with those new games?

[Nobody]

Sandbox I think is the entirety and not just one or two elements. Being able to alter the game imho is a sandbox element. As are the things you described dk. In order to be a sandbox game, it should have multiple sandbox elements. But that's imho. All the games we've named have a lot of those elements. I'm not sure, but a craft driven economy might be an element as well.

Note that I'm trying hard here not to cite wikipedia, because I think their definition of open world and sandbox games doesn't allow for enough variety in gameplay.

[Neb]

Crafting is another thing entirely. It sometimes seems like it's added into games just because they feel like they need to have it. Crafting doesn't add anything to GW2 for me. It's just kinda there. All the really cool recipes are all Mystic toilet crap.

It'd be nice to see a game where crafting really matters and is the main source of equipment. The whole farming crabs for swords thing is just... full on stupid. I know, fantasy, game logic etc. But it's still dumb no matter what kind strange fantasy you use.

[dirtyklingon]

mmo devs have it in theri head that fi they make everything noncraft bop/boe they will hurt RMT in their game. a decade of doing that however proves otherwise.

[Neb]

Yeah Bind on pick up/Equip is an annoying addition. It makes especially little sense in GW2.

[dirtyklingon]

ofc without boe/bop you need to have fewer less frequent gear upgrades. although in terms of looks we're already there.

[Nobody]

I wasn't thinking of crafting exactly, but the whole economy of a game being player driven. Which tends to involve crafting, although in Eve the whole bounty system on people DOES NOT involve crafting, but is still player driven. Which is part of what makes it a sandbox.

I need a better way to describe these things.

[dirtyklingon]

eve has crafting too...

[Nobody]

Yes, they do. They also have a bounty system though that's not crafting based.

[dirtyklingon]

i think there's somethign missing here


are you saying you get items from bounty hunting that would normally be crafted/etc that kind of thing?


if eve has an ing ame bounty system now,... idk that it's new persay but uh bounties have been a thing in eve for a long time now.


but yeah bounty system do tend to be player driven. i used to participate in my wow tbc server's bounty thread back int eh day. i considered putting bounties on people in l2 as well. i also played a bh but never got to the pvp part in swg precu/cu.

[Nobody]

If I remember right, it's just isk from bounties if you kill them. The game officially keeps track of it though and you can look at the posted bounties at any time in the game. It is basically a part of their economic system lol.

I think in Eve you can also make "quests" for other people to do and put up the rewards for them yourself.

All of which is player driven stuff.