[Lunae]

First things first i'll go over the lingo here.

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Lingo:
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Aggro (Noun): That's the thing you have if the monster is attacking you. (Cleric: ''I pulled Aggro!!!' The monster is now attacking the Cleric, Templar: ''I got Aggro back'' The monster is attacking you again...)

Aggro (verb): When Aggroing stuff, getting the attention of monsters. (''I'll aggro them, while you heal me...'')

Hate (noun): The amount of hate the monsters has towards you move you on his Kill list. The person with the most Hate, has Aggro.

Threat: Same as Hate. Pick your poison.

Enmity: Same as Hate.


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Hate Mecanics, (or so it appears to be... correct me here if you find something that is erroneous)
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First of all, in order to generate mob hate, you must first be on that mob's Hate List. Each mob keeps a Hate list, or a record of every player that has done something the mob hates. There are several ways to get onto a mob's Hate List:

-Negatively affecting the mob. This includes damaging the mob through physical attacks, spells, or abilities, hindering or debuffing the mob through spells that decrease its performance, and "bothering" the mob by walking where it can see you. (aggroing it)

-Positively affecting someone the mob hates. This includes healing or buffing someone on the mob's hate list. It is important to note the effect of Hate Decay: the hate you generate decays, wears off, or decreases in intensity over time. Hate decays even more frequently as the mob hits you for damage as this allows the mob to release some of the hate you have built up.

Once you have made it onto the mob's Hate List and have been assigned a Hate Meter, you can begin to generate hate. It seems to be that there is 2 types of Hate:Spike Hate, and Gradual Hate.

Spike Hate: An instant high amount of Hate generated through Abilities such as: Provoke, Provoking Severe Blow, Provoking Shield Counter, etc.

Consistant Hate: Hate generated through damage dealt to the mob. (The more damage you deal, the more Hate you build)

Abilities such as Provoking Severe Blow, generate both type of Hate as one part is spike and the damage part of the ability generates Consistant Hate.

The reason to separate these 2 is because keeping aggro seems to be the result of both Hate scores, But they don't decay at the same rate.

If we see the Hate Threshold as a Big Cement block, the Consistant Hate is the force at which we are pushing it, while the Spike Hate is the kicking you do to make it slide further, then it stops sliding and stay still until you catch up to it and start pushing again. The decay would be like the slope angle of the hill on which you are trying to push the block to the top that makes the block slides backward if you stop pushing it.

It's quite easy to see, just blow all your threat moves back to back just once then continue to only auto attack. See how much time it takes for someone to pull aggro. Try again and use them spread all over your rotation, like open with provoking severe blow, use a dmg skill chain, provoke, use dazing sev blow and it's following chain, auto atack once or twice use your shield counter, then provoking shield counter, another dmg chain, then roar.. Don't use your enmity skill more than once for the test, even if cooldown came up. That way your Spike Hate is spread all over. Now see how much time it takes for someone to pull.

Guess what, takes longer for someone to pull off you in the 2nd case. Now why is that? Decay. If you used up all your Spike enmity at start, those decay rather fast. and you haven't yet built a lot of constant enmity to back it up. You Spike enmity fades and you are left with little enmity. In case 2 you Spike your enmity up so you remain on top, yet in between your spikes, you continue to build constant enmity.

Spike Hate is like a threat loan for when you need to pump that enmity NOW, but you'll have to pay it back with constant enmity (wich is a slower gain, but also a slower decay) at some point if you wish to remain on top because that spike hate boost will decay quite fast.

In other words, best way to boost your enmity is through doing more damage and spread your spike hate cooldown over time and targets.


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Hands-On, An example on how to handle a 3-way pull:
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IJ the one that has Ranged attacks (marked to kill first), and open up with Provoking severe blow. That should give you just enough enmity so dps can start right away.

Then, when the 2 others are in range, use Provoking Roar. That not only put the others on you, but bumps up your enmity on first target too ensuring you don't loose it.

Then you can afford to use Provoke on the one that just got slept.

Land a dmg skill chain on 1rst mob.

When Provoking Shield counter pops up, use it on the 2nd target not CC'd.

Keep DPS on the first one, with Provoking Sev Blows as they come. Provoke on the CC.. etc. 1st mob dead. Repeat on the 2nd one, minus the Provoking shield on the CC'd to not wake it, but keep using provoke on it.

The 1 shot AoE at the start you just did, just saved you TONS of trouble filling the gap to keep it on you while dps start and giving you that small window of breathing room to make sure the other 2 aren't running to your Cleric / Sorc.

This post has been edited by Lunae: 08 October 2009 - 08:30 AM

[Loboshtiash]

This reflects what I've experienced as well. Really wish we had values for how much spike threat each ability was producing so we could create some sort of priority system other than "hit it when it's not on cooldown".

[Lunae]

Update: -Initial Aggro-

It appears that the first person that appears on the Hate List gets some Hate just because he's being the first on the list. Have a Templar use Provoke on a mob, and a second Templar use provoke right after it and the mob still go for the first one. It's easier to keep aggro on CC'd mob if the CC was apply post-pull while it's running to the templar than pre-pull, before the Templar provoke the mob to be tanked.

This post has been edited by Lunae: 08 October 2009 - 08:32 AM

[Akiba]

Initial aggro sounds about right. I've pulled 1 mob, another one links with it and starts hitting me. I have a healer friend with me and he will eventually get aggro from heals but not right away. So the initial aggro does add a certain amount of hate.

[68strat]

Lunae said:

First things first i'll go over the lingo here.

=======================================
Lingo:
=======================================

Aggro (Noun): That's the thing you have if the monster is attacking you. (Cleric: ''I pulled Aggro!!!' The monster is now attacking the Cleric, Templar: ''I got Aggro back'' The monster is attacking you again...)

Aggro (verb): When Aggroing stuff, getting the attention of monsters. (''I'll aggro them, while you heal me...'')

Hate (noun): The amount of hate the monsters has towards you move you on his Kill list. The person with the most Hate, has Aggro.

Threat: Same as Hate. Pick your poison.


=======================================
Hate Mecanics, (or so it appears to be... correct me here if you find something that is erroneous)
=======================================

First of all, in order to generate mob hate, you must first be on that mob's Hate List. Each mob keeps a Hate list, or a record of every player that has done something the mob hates. There are several ways to get onto a mob's Hate List:

-Negatively affecting the mob. This includes damaging the mob through physical attacks, spells, or abilities, hindering or debuffing the mob through spells that decrease its performance, and "bothering" the mob by walking where it can see you. (aggroing it)

-Positively affecting someone the mob hates. This includes healing or buffing someone on the mob's hate list. It is important to note the effect of Hate Decay: the hate you generate decays, wears off, or decreases in intensity over time. Hate decays even more frequently as the mob hits you for damage as this allows the mob to release some of the hate you have built up.

Once you have made it onto the mob's Hate List and have been assigned a Hate Meter, you can begin to generate hate. It seems to be that there is 2 types of Hate:Spike Hate, and Gradual Hate.

Spike Hate: An instant high amount of Hate generated through Abilities such as: Provoke, Provoking Severe Blow, Provoking Shield Counter, etc.

Gradual Hate: Hate generated through damage dealt to the mob. (The more damage you deal, the more Hate you build)

Abilities such as Provoking Severe Blow, generate both type of Hate as one part is spike and the damage part of the ability generates Gradual Hate.

The reason to separate these 2 is because keeping aggro seems to be the result of both Hate scores, somehow factored in together. Although we could (if we had the math) average it into a single value (I have aggro or I don't, ie: The Hate Threshold), it's good to understand the 2 parts that compute that value.

The reason is, If we see the Hate Threshold as a Big Cement block, the Gradual Hate is the force at which we are pushing it, while the Spike Hate is the kicking you do to make it slide further, then it stops sliding and stay still until you catch up to it and start pushing again. The decay and damage taken would be like the slope of the hill on which you are trying to push the block to the top.

Yeah.

I'll be testing more stuff in depth tonight.. Feel free to post your findings too.

/boggle

If two people were beating me up I would hate them both the same...however I would try to kill the smaller one first.

too bad the mobs arent that complex.

[M_Rangiku]

Loboshtiash said:

This reflects what I've experienced as well. Really wish we had values for how much spike threat each ability was producing so we could create some sort of priority system other than "hit it when it's not on cooldown".

A few things to say here.

Hate in this game is called Enmity.

2 classes specially have passives to increase the amount of enmity that they generate.
Glad, and Templar. Thus it's likely that if a Glad uses provoke they can easily take argo away from a Temp. It's also worth noting that Glads will do more dmg then a Templar. So their amount of enmity they pick up from a mob is going to be just under a Templar's.

Chanter, and (I think) Cleric get skills that decrease Enmity that you generate. single target, and AoE/group.

If you're a dd and you attack a mob, you will generate that mobs ire. If you as a dd move too close to a mob that has no target, and the Sorc sleeps it, but you beat on a mob right next to it, it's likely that you will generate alot of hate from that sleeped mob.

Also you shouldn't Use provoke just cause it's off cool down. Like I said you have passives that increase your enmity. So if you're killing Elites (Sense regular mobs wont matter) use provoke on the mob first. Then Don't use it again unless you lose the mob, and then use it to pull the mob back to you.

[Loboshtiash]

M_Rangiku said:

Also you shouldn't Use provoke just cause it's off cool down. Like I said you have passives that increase your enmity. So if you're killing Elites (Sense regular mobs wont matter) use provoke on the mob first. Then Don't use it again unless you lose the mob, and then use it to pull the mob back to you.

I've been under the impression that provoke does not work as a snap-agro taunt, but as an applicator of some amount of static enmity. And a considerable amount of enmity at that. Therefore because of this it was near/at the top of our list in terms of eps. If your trying to build a large amount of enmity on a single target.

I can confirm that it is not a snap-agro anyway, provoke does not always put you at the top of that mob's hate list and force it to attack you instead of the healer it's running to.

[Timaeus]

Provoke does apply static enmity, but a well-geared Templar working a proper rotation will passively build large quantities on enmity. Provoke works very well when taking multiple mobs, as the secondary mob can often grab healing aggro.

[M_Rangiku]

Loboshtiash said:

I've been under the impression that provoke does not work as a snap-agro taunt, but as an applicator of some amount of static enmity. And a considerable amount of enmity at that. Therefore because of this it was near/at the top of our list in terms of eps. If your trying to build a large amount of enmity on a single target.

I can confirm that it is not a snap-agro anyway, provoke does not always put you at the top of that mob's hate list and force it to attack you instead of the healer it's running to.

No your right. However, when I was tanking the Krall elites on my Glad. Provoke almost always brought the mob back to me.

But there was a few times when a mob stays sleeped for so long that you just can't sleep it any more, and you can't get argo on that mob. But from my experience, that is fairly rare thing to occur.:sparkles:

[Pea]

Im not sure if level has something to do with it. I was playing a lvl16 cleric doing krall quests with a 23 templar and a 21 assassin (before you say so, yes, the exp was HORRIBLE), but I just wanted to get the quest done. We found with a couple of mobs that even when I hadnt done any casting and stayed out the way, sometimes the mob just aggro'd onto me.

In CAion, the same templar leveled at a similar rate as me (me lvl 16, him lvl 18) doing the krall quests and the only times I pulled agro was when I actually put out some big heals. So I have a feeling that having a signficantly lower char in the group causes a lot of hate.

EDIT: Also, this only happened with the large smackhammer tursins btw, didnt seem to happen with any others.

This post has been edited by Pea: 12 September 2009 - 04:09 PM

[Monstone]

Pea, was he stuned at the time?

[Pea]

Nope, he'd be using his emnity skills and still would come to me, even when I use my decrease emnity. It didnt happen very often, but enough for us to notice. Probably out of 50 Tursins, happened 3 times.

[Monstone]

Pea said:

Nope, he'd be using his emnity skills and still would come to me, even when I use my decrease emnity. It didnt happen very often, but enough for us to notice. Probably out of 50 Tursins, happened 3 times.

Ok. I've had something like that happen when I got stunned. Took a skill or two to get it back.

Might just be a bug tho.

[Pea]

Monstone said:

Ok. I've had something like that happen when I got stunned. Took a skill or two to get it back.

Might just be a bug tho.

Yeah, he usually lost agro to the assassin rather than me when he was stunned, but this was just random :S

[Bamfkya]

Fat Tursin's drop agro. Nothing you can do to stop it, all that matters is how quick you get it back.

[Pea]

Bamfkya said:

Fat Tursin's drop agro. Nothing you can do to stop it, all that matters is how quick you get it back.

I know that, what Im saying is though that I hadnt done anything to cause myself to gain agro. Because I was a lower level, I decided it was pointless to DPS as it was wasting my mana, and the sin could get the job done pretty quickly, so for most fights I only casted one or two heals which were at least half way through the fight. I stayed back and out the way and yet somehow they came and agro'd on me. They did the one hit and the templar managed to get the agro back right away.

[Commotio]

I agree that taunt adds some static aggro instead of forcing the mob to attack you but there is still a reason not to use it every time the cooldown is up. Your other enmity skills also do dmg and are therefor great in a rotation but taunt is only adding enmity, nothing else so i keep it as a saver in case i loose aggro for some reason. You could also save any of the other enmity skills but then u also loose dps.


What rotation do you guys use anyway? I usually use Taunt once or Unescapable Judgement for the pull then i usually go Aion Armory Spell --> Aion Armory Spell --> Aion Armory Spell --> Aion Armory Spell and the other 2 from the chain. Then i add in Block Skills /and or Shining Slash. If Provoking blow is up again i use it, otherwise i go Shield Wall till its up. Repeat...
Thats by lvl 25

[Lunae]

Bump, and may the newer people out there read the first post. :)

[Darrigaaz]

One thing you'll notice about this game. Mobs are a little more intelligent than we are used to. Those Krall, for instance, have a little scripting involved in them. I've played a tank in many MMOs, and my wife has always played the healer classes. I know the basics of tanking in pretty much any game, and she knows the basics of healing... A few of the specific Krall mobs will try to stun whoever is tanking and go after the healer, no matter whether the stun landed or not, and no matter how much agro anybody has.

[Lunae]

Darrigaaz said:

A few of the specific Krall mobs will try to stun whoever is tanking and go after the healer, no matter whether the stun landed or not, and no matter how much agro anybody has.

It's my observation that it more often happens with mobs with ranged attacks, and thus, I always mark them as first kill target.