[Kandrah]

Not that I really think it will help but I was so bold to make a little summery of our issues and suggestions I had myself and other people brought up as well and posted it on the official NCSoft Beta forums dedicated to Chanters.

Not many posts there but I thought it might be the best place for now.
Please feel free to add or correct anything you might find important.

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Just to start of with - I am also playing the current 1.5 Open Beta Version and have a feeling for the changes that went in (even though the change to Rage Spell has been only to 50% instead of 20% healing cast time reduction as mentioned in patch notes before).
The scaling and changes in feel of gameplay a Chanter goes through during his life are a weird little thing.

Starting off similar to the Cleric as quite a powerful class in every aspect of the game (solo pve/pvp and group pve/pvp) the Chanter loses a lot of its powers throughout the leveling process and doesn't pick up on active skills until after lvl 40.

This is mostly the case because 99% of the new skills we get until after 42 are buff related and thus the Chanter turns into a full Support Class in the middle of the Leveling process. In the hope of someone at NCSoft actually reading this I wanted to point out some issues I have with a class I otherwise absolutely love while keeping in mind that its main role is a support/group class.

With that being out of the way I would like to bring up the following issues for discussion.

Rough overview of some Chanter issues:

• The Chanter has no real means of burst damage minus the possibility of adding a DD Godstone later on and is meant for sustained steady damage.
  
• The Chanter lacks any kind of class specific active non stigma CC until after lvl 42
  
• The Chanter lacks burst healing or diversity in healing tools until after 45
  
• Most Groups in PvP will chose a Cleric over a Chanter if it comes to one or the other. However, most groups might also chose a second cleric over a Chanter
  
• Some Mantras have questionable merit despite the option to stack with consumables or other class specific skills which only one player might benefit from.
  
• Mantra application issue during flight (axis problem if group members are not on the same height level).
  
• Chain armor has Magic Boost on around 66% of pieces on the high end gear which Chanters do not benefit from being a phys damage melee class foremost. Only around 16% of the Chain gear has stats which would really be beneficial for a melee class.

Some input about the before-mentioned points while keeping in mind that the Chanter is meant to be a group class and not about owning in solo PvP:

• The point about missing burst damage might not be a big issue to players who are aware about the class and what it is supposed to do. However one problem here is that players might feel inclined to specc as damage Chanter with the advanced Damage Stigma Line. This will on the other hand disable a Chanter from doing what the class was designed to start with for little gain added in the Damage compartment whereas other classes would fit that role much better. The only reason a Chanter would go the Damage Line is for better solo ability. I myself don't see this as a big problem and the general consensus is that if you are bothered with the overall lack of burst you should probably roll a different class.
  
• This is a real problem. Knockdowns and stuns are both pretty much by chance and can only be influenced to a certain point with crit manastone slotting and Mantra. CC is ideally meant to be an active tool to interrupt and act against incoming skills and or keep someone from running. Chanters are melee characters with the least possible CC. This doesn't bode well for the fact that the only ranged skill we get is at 42. On top the only active stun we get is the Chain stun which we also share with the Cleric who has much more tools at his/her disposal. In our case Heaven's Judgement doesn't scale as the Cleric one does.
  Suggestion: Why not move the ranged active stun to an earlier level and make it scale in efficiency? It's cooldown time has already been increased from 10 to 12 seconds which in my book was very uncalled for to start with. I would be ok with making it harder to land at lower level and end up eventually where it is at lvl 42 (which is still very hard to land most of the time). Also please let us have a scaled up version of Heaven's Judgment like the Clerics do. There is really no reason to give it to one class only.
  
  
• Three of our possibilities to add to our healing arsenal are stigmas. There is only the basic priest single target heal on 2 second cast and the single target HoT to chose from until lvl 34 where we get the Spell of Life group hot stigma line on a 3 Minute cooldown. The real bread and butter spell comes at lvl 45 with the single stigma HoT on short Cooldown. This is a stigma every Chanter will want to get.
  Suggestion: Move either Spell of Life line or Word of Recovery to a skillbook instead of a stigma. While some might think to move Word of Recover to a skillbook might be too powerful, there is really no reason to not move the Spell of Life line on it's 3 minute cooldown away from a Stigma Slot. If this is for some reason unthinkable, at least reduce the CD on Spell of Life.
  
• Compared to a Chanter, Clerics actively bring much more tools to a group that are beneficial during a PvP battle. PvP battle are mostly decided by burst damage and crowd control and only the Cleric has active tools to influence both of those (strong healing, dispel, strong cc and effective debuffs).The Chanter's skills to mitigate are not to forget in this situation however and it's what the class is meant to be. However Mantra scaling in terms of min/max and diminishing returns should probably re-checked on the Designers site.
  Suggestion: Why not move the dispel skill to the priest archetype instead of just giving it to the Cleric? As it stands now the Chanter has no beneficial tools and is generally viewed as an unwanted class compared to the Cleric in competitive pvp situations. Another idea would be to move the healing debuff from the Cleric to the Chanter to equal out the tools available which a group actively benefits from. Let me point out that I am not a fan of taking skills from another class and giving it to a second one and I am not only suggesting that because I myself obviously play a Chanter but it would come a long way of making the toolbox of a Chanter a little bit more versatile and wouldn't make a huge different in cutting down on the Clerics skill diversity in my humble opinion. A great idea from the community is to add it as a melee debuff attack instead of a spell. This would both fit the melee type combat and improve your otherwise mediocre debuffs (compared to other classes debuffs).
  
• It would be very much appreciated if Mantra Scaling would get a close look at by the Devs. Specially in terms of Diminishing returns. However this is hard to really properly judge as we don't have any combat logs including timestamps to work with. We are at the mercy of the designers here. However in some cases the Mantras during High level just end up being totally useless (Crit Mantra comes to mind). Whereas it will open up a spot for another Mantra to be active it doesn't cope well for a skill to just end up completely useless.
  Suggestion: Merge Mantras in some cases (Magic Boost and Phys Attack for example) to open up more overall buff benefits for the whole group.
  
• This is a bug which has to be looked at and I assume that other classes have issues with the axis as well.
  
• More diversity in terms of being able to enhance a specific skill of either the Cleric or the Chanter would be much appreciated. Class armor to chose from in order to enhance certain skills would be a good start for example.

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This post has been edited by Kandrah: 17 September 2009 - 01:29 PM
Reason for edit: Removed link to beta boards since they are not up anymore

[Khaunshar]

Excellent post. We may not agree on everything (namely the 2nd Cleric debate a few days back), but this is pretty much bullseye.

[Kandrah]

Khaunshar said:

Excellent post. We may not agree on everything (namely the 2nd Cleric debate a few days back), but this is pretty much bullseye.

Hah, well what would a forum be without interesting discussions. If everyone would agree we would all fall asleep of boredom. Fact is, there is no reason to not agree with the merit of two clerics. The only thing I find arguable is the fact that situations change from every pvp encounter and taking one situation out of many possible doesn't necessarily proof to be a huge problem in Practice.
Nevertheless it IS a problem which should be improved one way or the other.

[Ridley]

Ohey, I recognize some of my QQ in thar.



But honestly, I was actually thinking of doing exactly this myself, but have been too busy with classes. This is a fairly detailed and complete take on chanter issues without being too wordy, whereas if I had sat down and done it, it most likely would have turned into a novella, and nobody would have read it, lol.

I really hope someone influential does read this, unlikely though it is. While most of it would seem like common sense from the point of view of anyone who is familiar with the class, these issues may not be things that have occurred to NCsoft, as they have more of a top-down view of the game.


As the retail date draws nearer, I can feel my resolution to stick with chanter wavering a bit, so I would really like to hear something from NCsoft, even if it's only so much as "yeah, we know there are still big problems, we're working on it."

I've taken this leap of faith a fair few too many times going into other MMOs, and it's caused me to become a bit paranoid. :study:


loldrg

[Meringue]

Ridley said:

As the retail date draws nearer, I can feel my resolution to stick with chanter wavering a bit, so I would really like to hear something from NCsoft, even if it's only so much as "yeah, we know there are still big problems, we're working on it."

I really love my chanters so far (OB and Chinese), but all these threads make me think... maybe i shouldnt read them. ;_;

[Kandrah]

Meringue said:

I really love my chanters so far (OB and Chinese), but all these threads make me think... maybe i shouldnt read them. ;_;

If you have fun with the class it doesn't matter what anyone else says. Despite the post with suggestions I love the class and am ready to level up a second Chanter and looking forward to it too.

Since the OP is a suggestion post it does focus on the weakness of the class. There are enough positive aspects out there too (such as the 3k DP skill which just totally rocks!)

[Meringue]

Kandrah said:

If you have fun with the class it doesn't matter what anyone else says. Despite the post with suggestions I love the class and am ready to level up a second Chanter and looking forward to it too.

Since the OP is a suggestion post it does focus on the weakness of the class. There are enough positive aspects out there too (such as the 3k DP skill which just totally rocks!)

Ah, i wasn't really serious, i like the class too much, and your infos here on the forum about it in later levels makes me want to play a chanter even more. ;)

This post has been edited by Meringue: 11 September 2009 - 06:37 AM
Reason for edit: bad english

[khamul]

nice post !

and I agree with that :

Quote

Another idea would be to move the healing debuff from the Cleric to the Chanter to equal out the tools available which a group actively benefits from

transfert somes cleric skills to chanter like the healing debuff or Blessed Shield I - Skills - Aion (it's +100% heal not 256%)

++

[Sirinia]

Kandrah is awesome. She collects all the info she has experienced herself, what the rest of us has experienced and does her own theorycrafting with a good sense of reason and puts it into nice digestible packages on these forums with far more patience than i would ever have. Kudos ^^

[supervon]

Ok.

So hey, I am rolling a Chanter right now in OB. I have not played one before, but played a hybrid class (DOK) in WAR. I am nervous that when I get to higher levels I won't get what I want out of this class. I have only played a Sorc in AION as well. I like the damage, but the squishiness is a challenge.

From what I gather from your post, the Chanter does not at any point really become any focal character in PvP, nor do they have any real burst damage.

I am only at lvl 18 right now, and am endeavoring to get to at least 23 or 25 by Sunday before the OB is over.

My focus later in the game would not to be a toe to toe player initially. I like hanging back and picking my targets based on who is almost dead (bottom feeder I know!). I liked the Sorc because of the dps. I thought that a Chanter would have an array of items in it's arsenal to fight (buffs, debuffs, heals and dps) but it doesn't seem like there is a lot of the dps and that concerns me. I don't really plan on being a solo player. My husband and I play together a lot. He doesn't usually play any kind of healing class. He likes the Scouts. I am sure that I will be in a group most of the time, but I don't want to be pigeon holed into a support class standing there buffing the beejeepers out of everyone and watching the fight.

And by the way, excellent post

This post has been edited by supervon: 11 September 2009 - 01:22 PM

[Kandrah]

I think you will be fine with your attitude :)
We are not buff bots at all - you will be really active as a chanter and you can definitely be the finisher - or keep healers distracted and keep them from casting - there is tons to do, no worries as long as you don't expect to be a true dps class (such as the sorcerers)

[supervon]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Yeah, I haven't been playing MMOs that long period, so I will be more comfortable in a group setting anyway. Once I get my confidence level up in general I will possibly roll a gladiator or at least a sorc as an alt, based of course on what the rest of my legion mates.

Again. Awesome information in this post. I am glad to see that there are threads on here that are made in order to HELP other players and not always start a rage thread.

I know your intention was not to QQ or direct anyone away from being a Chanter, but more to educate and dispell any assumptions that some players may have made about the Chanters abilities.

Now that I have a clearer understanding of what to expect, I can adjust my intentions with this character and ponder other options when I am ready to perform a different function within the group.

[Darkmaka]

Totally agry with the main post for all points.
I play Chanter since 1 year and I've got too many times all troubles that are mentioned.
I hope see change for have a good group Chanter.

[Dayne]

Quote

Rough overview of some Chanter issues:
The Chanter has no real means of burst damage minus the possibility of adding a DD Godstone later on and is meant for sustained steady damage.
The Chanter lacks any kind of class specific active non stigma CC until after lvl 42
The Chanter lacks burst healing or diversity in healing tools until after 45
Most Groups in PvP will chose a Cleric over a Chanter if it comes to one or the other. However, most groups might also chose a second cleric over a Chanter
Some Mantras have questionable merit despite the option to stack with consumables or other class specific skills which only one player might benefit from.
Mantra application issue during flight (axis problem if group members are not on the same height level).
Chain armor has Magic Boost on around 66% of pieces on the high end gear which Chanters do not benefit from being a phys damage melee class foremost. Only around 16% of the Chain gear has stats which would really be beneficial for a melee class.

I would totaly settle for a simple swap on our "big" heal spell, make it instant cast but give it a 2-4 second recast instead. Also id switch the +cast time on rage for +recast time(would have to go back to +50%), yes affecting our HoT as well. I'd keep the stigma +2222 heal with current cast time though.

~Higher recast would balance the guarantee of the heal.

~Give us higher grp utility for burst healing to compete for that second healer spot. Everyone has had that "oh **** our tanks gonna die, fuck i wish i could cast faster!" moment.

~Let us put in more attacks, basically a little more dps but nothing spectacular and it would make us choose between healing or finishing that combo that we only have two of.

A charge type skill similar to assasins would be great for covering ground but its probly asking a bit much, it wouuld eleminate some need for CC, though it would have to be on a 1 min+ recast.

[Sirinia]

Dayne said:

I would totaly settle for a simple swap on our "big" heal spell, make it instant cast but give it a 2-4 second recast instead. Also id switch the +cast time on rage for +recast time(would have to go back to +50%), yes affecting our HoT as well. I'd keep the stigma +2222 heal with current cast time though.

I would be very unhappy about a change like that, and it would also render our casttime reduction skill useless for ourselves.

Dayne said:

~Higher recast would balance the guarantee of the heal.

- The concentration stat already does this in a player controlable fashion

Dayne said:

~Give us higher grp utility for burst healing to compete for that second healer spot. Everyone has had that "oh **** our tanks gonna die, fuck i wish i could cast faster!" moment.

With the first change, a second healer spot would pretty much disappear compared to what it is now. Sometimes you won't need to heal, at other times you need to spam heal (which instant cast 2-4 sec recast would prevent)

Dayne said:

~Let us put in more attacks, basically a little more dps but nothing spectacular and it would make us choose between healing or finishing that combo that we only have two of.

You have the offensive advanced stigma line for this.

Dayne said:

A charge type skill similar to assasins would be great for covering ground but its probly asking a bit much, it wouuld eleminate some need for CC, though it would have to be on a 1 min+ recast.

You are the only class with a free always on option of extra run speed, and the added option of burst flight speed, both of which also stack with other means of increasing run/flight speed.

[Kandrah]

Glad I refreshed the thread before I posted.
Sirinia is head on with his comments.

As much as I think we do need a few changes we also have to be careful not to ask for too much or things that can be solved in an easier way.

[sonnet]

definitely agree with the CC skills suggestion :(
its rather sad we dont really get anything till later
also dispel would be nice for the priest line instead of cleric only
and another ranged skill since our range skills...suck

[Dayne]

Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayne
~Give us higher grp utility for burst healing to compete for that second healer spot. Everyone has had that "oh **** our tanks gonna die, nyerk i wish i could cast faster!" moment.
With the first change, a second healer spot would pretty much disappear compared to what it is now. Sometimes you won't need to heal, at other times you need to spam heal (which instant cast 2-4 sec recast would prevent)

Although your post was very true and included one or two things il admit i didn't think about, this part i have to whole heartily disagree with you on, the only differnce in a 2 second recast or a 2 second cast is a chance to attack between, which wouuld also give us enough time to attempt a stun or possibly proc a knockdown, even a 3 second recast would make little difference to what it is now.

~Cast time skill, yes i missed that.
~Concentration doesn't do anything if you get stuned or knocked down.
~Offence would be in reply to the missing ability to burst dmg, no this is not burst, but it is effectively more dmg without overpowering
~Speed Mantra is nice and all but it is minimal at best, also im talking about a way to close a gap while being kited and stated it was wishful thinking.
~None of this maters regardless considering this isnt NCSoft site, NA dev's have no controll over gameplay, and i honestly dont think the asian devs give a flying fuck what we say.(which i honestly think is a blessing considering forum QQ has ruined more then one game). Though i clearly enjoy talking about it with everyone else as i am posting this.

~Sorry i'm defiantly not nearly as versed in forum quoting as most :(

This post has been edited by Dayne: 14 September 2009 - 05:01 AM

[Sirinia]

Dayne said:

Although your post was very true and included one or two things il admit i didn't think about, this part i have to whole heartily disagree with you on, the only differnce in a 2 second recast or a 2 second cast is a chance to attack between, which wouuld also give us enough time to attempt a stun or possibly proc a knockdown, even a 3 second recast would make little difference to what it is now.

~Cast time skill, yes i missed that.[...]

The difference is that with the cast time reduction skill, you can spam faster and you have the ability to choose when you need it. If it was an instant cast on a recast timer, you would need a cooldown reduction skill instead ;)

Dayne said:

~Concentration doesn't do anything if you get stuned or knocked down.

This is true. But you cannot cast an instant skill while stunned or knocked down either

Dayne said:

~Offence would be in reply to the missing ability to burst dmg, no this is not burst, but it is effectively more dmg without overpowering

While i do agree with you to some extent, it is also a very very thin fine line to walk between a balanced hybrid and an overpowered one. I am sure the chanter class will be tweaked over time. I appreciate NCSoft's approach in Aion with small changes per patch cycle, rather than f ex Mythic's approach with large game mechanics changes turning everything upside down in fell swoops.

Dayne said:

~Speed Mantra is nice and all but it is minimal at best, also im talking about a way to close a gap while being kited and stated it was wishful thinking.

The run speed mantra adds 1.0 to the run speed stat which has it's base at 6 and cap at 12. It actually equates to around 16% which is quite a lot for an always on free groupwide buff, and is also one of the largest (but far from the only) reasons for a PvP group to make the wise decision of adding a chanter :)

Dayne said:

~None of this maters regardless considering this isnt NCSoft site, NA dev's have no controll over gameplay, and i honestly dont think the asian devs give a flying fuck what we say.(which i honestly think is a blessing considering forum QQ has ruined more then one game). Though i clearly enjoy talking about it with everyone else as i am posting this.

I wouldn't be too sure about this. NA and EU as a whole is a large market, and as such represent quite a possible extra income for NCSoft on top of the asian market.

Dayne said:

~Sorry i'm defiantly not nearly as versed in forum quoting as most :(

No problem, you'll get there ;)

[raeyne]

I really wanna steal Festering Wound from cleric tho ;D

This post has been edited by raeyne: 14 September 2009 - 04:01 PM