[Anashel]

[ EDIT @ NOV 9, 2009 ]
The following thread started while I was looking to buy an Alienware gaming computer. It quickly changes, with the help of the community, in a completely custom build gaming PC project. I then trusted a complete stranger with 4k to see this dream gaming machine come true.

Many topics have been discussed (Liquid Cooling vs Fan, Raptor HDD vs SSD, GTX 295 VS 2x 275 SLI, etc), so I invited you to really read the thread, but here is the highlight of some more important topic:

(Permalink don't work so you have to scroll)
- The project (New Egg Shopping list)
- CPU Lapping discussion -- Post ID #49
- Casing assembly -- Post ID #54
- Solid State Hard Drive (SSD) in Raid 0 -- Post ID #56
- i7 920 2.66 GHZ Overclock to 4 GHZ -- Post ID #85
- GTX 275 SLI Configuration -- Post ID #88
- Final result : Overall Benchmark! (Not yet discussed)


[ ORIGINAL POST ]
Greeting,

Can anyone give me and advice on the following option?


1.8GB NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 295

VS

2x 1.8GB NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 260 192 Core

VS

2X ATI Radeon™ HD 5870, 2GB GDDR5


As the backbone, the rig got a i7 975 @ 3.6GHz with 2x Raid 0 10k Hard drive and 6 GB ram. Watercooling of course.

Thank you!

This post has been edited by Anashel: 24 November 2009 - 09:59 PM
Reason for edit: Thread Highlights

[fishstix]

http://www.aionsourc...ard-option.html is almost exactly the same post >.> except no ati option.

anti-alienware feelings aside...
I assume money isn't an issue with your choice of alienware, I'd go with the 2x 5870 as that'd the best hardware option. Except idk if the 5870 has the same ATI issues as the other models with crashes and fps drops.

[Anashel]

Indeed, money isnt an issue. But I still havent push the "buy" button, so if you have advice on other rig, tell me.

I was wondering if Dual ATI have stability issue compare to NVidia. Anyone have Dual 5870 and got stability issue?

As for the Alienware, I just want a rig with watercooling already tested. The Alienware rig come with a 4 year inhouse support 24/7, I find it really appealing.

Thanks!

[fishstix]

There's 2 other sites you can play around with and research: CyberPower Inc. - UNLEASH THE POWER - Create the Custom Gaming PC and Laptop Computer of your dreams and iBUYPOWER Gaming PC - Gaming Computers and Gaming notebooks With pretty similar configured systems, both cyberpowerpc and ibuypower come out to about $1000 cheaper than alienware. I have heard about some bad quality control problems with cyberpower, (idk about ibuypower) and with a liquid cooling system, yeah maybe it's best not to risk it. The 4yr inhouse support does look pretty nice if you don't know how to fix things yourself though.

[Zurak]

honestly i went ATI once and have never touched it again.

currently running aion max graphics on a geforce gtx 280 and have only crashed once since the game launched...probably software not hardware.

[DeathDwellsHere]

use Gaming computers, custom gaming computers, gaming pc, custom gaming pc they are much better and overclock for you. since you are willign to pay so much go with these guys.

[Ossew]

I don't know why anyone would waste thier money on alienware when you can build a similar system a lot cheaper.

[Totaledcow]

Let me give you two huge pieces of advice:

1) Don't buy a custom built gaming PC, buy the parts and build it yourself. It's easy, it will save you a ton of cash, and it will help you learn more about the inner workings of a computer so that you are more able to help yourself in the future when it comes to troubleshooting issues. If my 63 year old mother can build a computer (with a little help picking the parts), I figure you can probably do it.

2) 2 way SLI of cheaper cards vs 1 more expensive card is a question everybody asks themselves, the real question comes down to this: Do you want to take the time necessary to ensure you keep updated GPU drivers and SLI profiles all the time so SLI works in your latest games, or would you rather forget about it and just play? If you can manage to keep up with it, you can save a little money and/or get a big performance boost doing 2-way SLI with cards one step down from the top, but if you don't have the profile, the game won't use the SLI (making it a waste).

My best recommendation for a gaming PC, where money is no object, is the following:

Core i7 920
EVGA Classified X58 Mobo
2x EVGA GTX275 Superclocked in 2-way SLI
12GB (2 3x2 kits) Corsair Dominator GT (1866MHz DDR3)
Noctua UH-N12P or a Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme with 2x Scythe S-Flex SF12F for the CPU cooler (push/pull)
Coolermaster HAF 932, Coolermaster Stacker 830 Evolution, or Antec 1200 for your case
Scythe Ultra Kaze to fill in available fan spots (ditch larger [e.g. 240mm] fans in favor of multiple 120s, they'll push more air with more focus at the expense of an increase in volume)
LG BDRW/HD-DVD Combo drive SATA
A 720W or larger PSU with included features of Active PFC, Modular, 80+ Certified from one of the following manufacturers:
PC Power and Cooling
OCZ
Corsair
Seasonic
Enermax (my fave pick is the Enermax Revolution85+ 1050W SLI, it's probably the best PSU on the market overall, but pricey)


That takes care of the basics: mobo, cpu, ram, psu, gpu, cooling, burner, and case. Now you need to think about your storage subsystem, this is where things get interesting.

First, there are 5 routes to take, in varying levels of expense and performance gain. This is important to understand because with the advances in CPU and bus technology, the main bottleneck in a modern computer is the storage. How fast your game loads, how fast you boot up, how fast you load into a level, all that is affected more by the storage subsystem than any other one subsystem of your computer. So examine the following options closely:

1) SATA HDD, No RAID
Pros: Cheap if done with 640GB WD Black HDD (fastest 7200RPM drive on market, $70 per), Cheapish if done with a Raptor-X 300GB SATA 10k RPM drive (slightly faster, roughly 2.5-3% performance gain over WD Black 640, between $150-200 per)
Cons: Slow in the grand scheme of things

2) SATA HDD, RAID 0
Pros: Fast, still relatively cheap, roughly linear speed increase on burstable writes and on sequential reads
Cons: Has a theoretical loss of reliability equal to the number of drives in the array minus 1 (n-1 reliability) as any single drive failing forces the entire array to fail

3) SAS HDD, RAID 0
Pros: Faster yet, significant speed increase over SATA if done with 15k RPM drives, and you have access to much more reliable RAID functions in most PCI-E RAID cards
Cons: Expensive comparitive to SATA, requires the purchase of separate RAID card to support SAS, drives are expensive (starting at $250 and going up per drive)

4) Flash-Based SSDs, RAID 0
Pros: Near instant seeks, significant speed boost over all forms of HDDs, causes NO RELIABILITY LOSS from RAID 0
Cons: Expensive (drives start at around $300 per and go up from there), significantly reduced capacity, not a mature enough technology, possibilities of reliability loss due to wear (mitigated by wear leveling to some extent)

5) RAM-Based SSDs, RAID 0
Pros: Fastest possible solution, seek times in microseconds, true random access, insane read and write speed (possible to achieve 1 TERABYTE PER SECOND with 0.0000008 seconds per seek with over 200k I/O operations per second in a home-built solution)
Cons: Very very very expensive (Starts at around $1500 for a proper setup and depending on final speeds and capacity desired can cost as much as $5000 for storage subsystem alone), low capacity, requires attention to detail in planning to ensure proper disaster recovery since RAM is a volatile form of storage (CF backup, battery, external AC power, etc.)


All in all, without a massive budget, the best storage solution currently is 2x Raptor-X 300GB in RAID 0 for your game/system drive, and do storage on slower 1TB drives to save money.


If you do plan on overclocking, i7s are pretty friendly and easy to work with and all the EVGA boards have built in "Dummy OC" settings that work well and require no real understanding to use.

With a rig like above, it should be possible to sit at 4GHz stable on the CPU with the RAM running at 1600MHz 1.67v, at 5-5-5-18-48 timings and maintain appropriate and reasonable temperatures without exceeding any established safe voltage limitations.


EDIT:

If you ignore my advice and spend 5 grand on some overpriced piece of ****, I will hate you forever for being one of "those" people. It's alright to have somebody build it for you if you really don't want to mess with it, but do the world, yourself, and your local economy a favor and find somebody in your community nearby that specializes in doing custom built systems and has good reviews, or get one of your overclocking gamer buddies to build it for you for the cost of parts and a couple hundred bucks.

If all else fails you can contact me in a PM and I will build the system for you and then ship it to you if you purchase the parts and mail me a check upon receipt of the finished product. I've built several hundred systems in my time, ranging from bog standard business desktops, to some seriously zany custom-cooled gaming rigs. I usually prefer to work with clients face to face, but I'd rather put in the extra hassle on my part than let somebody give their business to a shoddy and unethical outfit like Alienware (and yes I realize Dell bought it, which only makes it worse, not better). They exist entirely to exploit people without any regard to quality or ethics.

EDIT2:

DO NOT DO WATERCOOLING. If you aren't computer savvy enough to build it yourself, you are not savvy enough to properly maintain a water cooling system. This will be 5 grand down the drain within a year, guaranteed, if you buy a pre-built watercooled system without the slightest idea of how it works. Not to mention the performance benefits in cooling vs a properly built aircooled system are next to none. The only time watercooling actually worth the hassle and additional expense is if you are running your loop through a waterchiller instead of a radiator, which of course will NOT be how it's set up by Alienware. Please oh god, please, do not do watercooling, you will be making a HORRIBLE mistake.

This post has been edited by Totaledcow: 04 October 2009 - 01:05 AM

[DeathDwellsHere]

Totaledcow said:

Let me give you two huge pieces of advice:

1) Don't buy a custom built gaming PC, buy the parts and build it yourself. It's easy, it will save you a ton of cash, and it will help you learn more about the inner workings of a computer so that you are more able to help yourself in the future when it comes to troubleshooting issues. If my 63 year old mother can build a computer (with a little help picking the parts), I figure you can probably do it.

2) 2 way SLI of cheaper cards vs 1 more expensive card is a question everybody asks themselves, the real question comes down to this: Do you want to take the time necessary to ensure you keep updated GPU drivers and SLI profiles all the time so SLI works in your latest games, or would you rather forget about it and just play? If you can manage to keep up with it, you can save a little money and/or get a big performance boost doing 2-way SLI with cards one step down from the top, but if you don't have the profile, the game won't use the SLI (making it a waste).

My best recommendation for a gaming PC, where money is no object, is the following:

Core i7 920
EVGA Classified X58 Mobo
2x EVGA GTX275 Superclocked in 2-way SLI
12GB (2 3x2 kits) Corsair Dominator GT (1866MHz DDR3)
Noctua UH-N12P or a Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme with 2x Scythe S-Flex SF12F for the CPU cooler (push/pull)
Coolermaster HAF 932, Coolermaster Stacker 830 Evolution, or Antec 1200 for your case
Scythe Ultra Kaze to fill in available fan spots (ditch larger [e.g. 240mm] fans in favor of multiple 120s, they'll push more air with more focus at the expense of an increase in volume)
LG BDRW/HD-DVD Combo drive SATA
A 720W or larger PSU with included features of Active PFC, Modular, 80+ Certified from one of the following manufacturers:
PC Power and Cooling
OCZ
Corsair
Seasonic
Enermax (my fave pick is the Enermax Revolution85+ 1050W SLI, it's probably the best PSU on the market overall, but pricey)


That takes care of the basics: mobo, cpu, ram, psu, gpu, cooling, burner, and case. Now you need to think about your storage subsystem, this is where things get interesting.

First, there are 5 routes to take, in varying levels of expense and performance gain. This is important to understand because with the advances in CPU and bus technology, the main bottleneck in a modern computer is the storage. How fast your game loads, how fast you boot up, how fast you load into a level, all that is affected more by the storage subsystem than any other one subsystem of your computer. So examine the following options closely:

1) SATA HDD, No RAID
Pros: Cheap if done with 640GB WD Black HDD (fastest 7200RPM drive on market, $70 per), Cheapish if done with a Raptor-X 300GB SATA 10k RPM drive (slightly faster, roughly 2.5-3% performance gain over WD Black 640, between $150-200 per)
Cons: Slow in the grand scheme of things

2) SATA HDD, RAID 0
Pros: Fast, still relatively cheap, roughly linear speed increase on burstable writes and on sequential reads
Cons: Has a theoretical loss of reliability equal to the number of drives in the array minus 1 (n-1 reliability) as any single drive failing forces the entire array to fail

3) SAS HDD, RAID 0
Pros: Faster yet, significant speed increase over SATA if done with 15k RPM drives, and you have access to much more reliable RAID functions in most PCI-E RAID cards
Cons: Expensive comparitive to SATA, requires the purchase of separate RAID card to support SAS, drives are expensive (starting at $250 and going up per drive)

4) Flash-Based SSDs, RAID 0
Pros: Near instant seeks, significant speed boost over all forms of HDDs, causes NO RELIABILITY LOSS from RAID 0
Cons: Expensive (drives start at around $300 per and go up from there), significantly reduced capacity, not a mature enough technology, possibilities of reliability loss due to wear (mitigated by wear leveling to some extent)

5) RAM-Based SSDs, RAID 0
Pros: Fastest possible solution, seek times in microseconds, true random access, insane read and write speed (possible to achieve 1 TERABYTE PER SECOND with 0.0000008 seconds per seek with over 200k I/O operations per second in a home-built solution)
Cons: Very very very expensive (Starts at around $1500 for a proper setup and depending on final speeds and capacity desired can cost as much as $5000 for storage subsystem alone), low capacity, requires attention to detail in planning to ensure proper disaster recovery since RAM is a volatile form of storage (CF backup, battery, external AC power, etc.)


All in all, without a massive budget, the best storage solution currently is 2x Raptor-X 300GB in RAID 0 for your game/system drive, and do storage on slower 1TB drives to save money.


If you do plan on overclocking, i7s are pretty friendly and easy to work with and all the EVGA boards have built in "Dummy OC" settings that work well and require no real understanding to use.

With a rig like above, it should be possible to sit at 4GHz stable on the CPU with the RAM running at 1600MHz 1.67v, at 5-5-5-18-48 timings and maintain appropriate and reasonable temperatures without exceeding any established safe voltage limitations.


EDIT:

If you ignore my advice and spend 5 grand on some overpriced piece of ****, I will hate you forever for being one of "those" people. It's alright to have somebody build it for you if you really don't want to mess with it, but do the world, yourself, and your local economy a favor and find somebody in your community nearby that specializes in doing custom built systems and has good reviews, or get one of your overclocking gamer buddies to build it for you for the cost of parts and a couple hundred bucks.

If all else fails you can contact me in a PM and I will build the system for you and then ship it to you if you purchase the parts and mail me a check upon receipt of the finished product. I've built several hundred systems in my time, ranging from bog standard business desktops, to some seriously zany custom-cooled gaming rigs. I usually prefer to work with clients face to face, but I'd rather put in the extra hassle on my part than let somebody give their business to a shoddy and unethical outfit like Alienware (and yes I realize Dell bought it, which only makes it worse, not better). They exist entirely to exploit people without any regard to quality or ethics.

EDIT2:

DO NOT DO WATERCOOLING. If you aren't computer savvy enough to build it yourself, you are not savvy enough to properly maintain a water cooling system. This will be 5 grand down the drain within a year, guaranteed, if you buy a pre-built watercooled system without the slightest idea of how it works. Not to mention the performance benefits in cooling vs a properly built aircooled system are next to none. The only time watercooling actually worth the hassle and additional expense is if you are running your loop through a waterchiller instead of a radiator, which of course will NOT be how it's set up by Alienware. Please oh god, please, do not do watercooling, you will be making a HORRIBLE mistake.

I like you =)

But yea pretty much folow him and build it on your own or use digitalstormonline.com because they do absolutely everything for you.:love:

[Totaledcow]

Okay, the very thought of somebody purchasing an Alienware system, much less one which is watercooled, so enraged me that I felt the need to actually configure you a system based on what I've read here that I think meets your needs and budget. It's in a public wishlist on Newegg (my preferred vendor) see Wishlist# 15445368: Anashel Rig

In fact, if the total cost of this system is within line with what you are looking for, please PM me, I will build this box for you, we can discuss cost for my labor. Word of advice, replace the 230mm fans in the HAF 932 with 4x 120mm fans (hence why there are 10 fans on that wishlist, 4 for top exhaust, 4 for side intake, 1 for rear exhaust, and 1 for additional front intake, leaving the 3rd 230mm fan in place [no mounts for 120s in front and I don't want to hack job it]). Also, sleeve your cables, it helps. Also, zip ties are your friend, and they're cheap, cable management is worth the effort.

The last box I built for a client I spent 15 hours over the course of 3 days solely working on cable management, sleeving, and cooling. When I was finished I had heavily modded his case so that all cables except for the power to the GPUs and the connections between the mobo and HDDs were practically invisible. It's worth the effort, both in assisting you in keeping the computer clean and with improving overall airflow and cooling effectiveness. I dare you to put one of my systems with air cooling up against a watercooled Alienware, and I'll show you how I can beat their temps without as much hassle. Air is cheap, effective, and low maintenance. Please for the love of god, do not watercool your box unless you actually know what you are doing.

EDIT:

Also, seeing as you're French-Canadian, please do me a favor and answer a question everybody in my legion wants to know. Do you know what a Klondike Bar is?

EDIT2:

Just for giggles I configured an Alienware Aurora ALX to get as close to my configuration as possible to see the price. It had slower RAM, not as good video cards (really their GTX260 option isn't the Core 216 version, why?), a crappy PSU, and the rebranded chinese **** that Alienware/Dell considers "gaming grade" input devices, and they still managed to come out more than $1000 over what I linked above, and that's only with the basic 1 year of 8x5 phone support that is included with all Dell/Alienware systems. I consider that an utter fail of epic proportions on their part.

Also, sidenote, they apparently have a bee in their bonnet about MicroATX, as both of the available Alienware desktops these days are MicroATX based systems in a midtower case. Here's a hint: bigger cases = more volume of air inside the case + more fans = better airflow and more places to put stuff, including massively huge video cards. MicroATX + Midtower in a gaming box is dumb, especially in one that costs 5 grand.

This post has been edited by Totaledcow: 04 October 2009 - 01:26 AM

[XShadesX]

rofl at all the post sayin the AW is overprice ( you get what u pay for ), sure i can build a cheaper one for less with same spec
( doubt it ) and if u do the quality of the items are crap prolly. i have an AW and all i can say is LOVE IT.

[Anashel]

Wow!

First thank you all for the answer, it is much appreciated. What a great community! And Totaledcow, you rock!


Ok, so i'm convinced to go custom buid. My questions / comments:

- I was thinking Watercooling because of the noise. I saw some noise dampening sheet you can put in the casing, any opinion on the topic?

- Is there any nice casing out there?

- I was thinking Dell because of the support. I currently have a P5n32-e SLI / 8800 Ultra / 4 Gb in raid 0 and it's a night mare. BIOS update never work (3 times I order at Bios Man), crash, computer shutdown, etc. It was a custom build from obviously someone who know jack.

- I was thinking to go SLI but I clearly preferd NOT playing with profile and update. So, Nvidia GTX 295 is the best one right now?

- I was thinking to go overclock but only if it's a "push here" button. (Someone recall the "Turbo" on old 33mhz - 66mhz ?) I have spend countless time overclocking CPU and playing with NorthBridge/SouthBridge voltage, etc...) It's too counterproductive. ASUS have a simple +X% overclock function, enough for me.

- I was looking to go raid 0 SATA with 10k drive. Does 3 drive make a major difference?

- I was thinking to get a Klondike sandwich, anyone want some?

Thank you!

[Daeva]

Definitely get 2x Radeon 5870. 2x Radeon 5870 > GTX 295. IMHO even one would be enough to comfortably play any game out there on high resolution, but hey, if money isn't an issue then go for it :sparkles:

[Anashel]

Hi!

I re-do the wishlist in egghead.ca to see the price variation.

Newegg.ca - Once You Know, You Newegg

For unknow reason, they dont sell Thermal Compound in Canada. Guess the country is cold enough. =P

Comments:
- Some part were not available, so I took the closest one.
- 6 Gb is enough for me.
- I want the EVGA board with the BIOS reset button! From what I understand, it revert the BIOS back to it's original state in case of BIOS corruption. This is awesome.

Comments?

[Totaledcow]

XShadesX said:

rofl at all the post sayin the AW is overprice ( you get what u pay for ), sure i can build a cheaper one for less with same spec
( doubt it ) and if u do the quality of the items are crap prolly. i have an AW and all i can say is LOVE IT.

It's wonderful that you're a satisfied customer, but you know jack **** about computers, so making claims as to the quality of custom builds vs OEM builds is something you really aren't equipped to do. GG, nice troll. Go find something better to do.

Anashel said:

Wow!

First thank you all for the answer, it is much appreciated. What a great community! And Totaledcow, you rock!


Ok, so i'm convinced to go custom buid. My questions / comments:

- I was thinking Watercooling because of the noise. I saw some noise dampening sheet you can put in the casing, any opinion on the topic?

I've used silencing foam in the past in my own systems and in some of my customer's builds. It provides an overall drop (if used properly) of about 3 to 5 dba of system noise. This is some, but not a lot. The reason I use Scythe S-Flex fans is that they use a fluid bearing instead of a standard metal bearing, which GREATLY reduces noise. Another thing I always do in my builds is to ensure that all parts that move in the case (fans, burner, hdds) are vibration dampened. This will reduce noise even further.

Something else to point out is that watercooling isn't completely quiet, as the pump makes noise and you still have to have fans on the radiator (usually smaller, noisier fans). The only type of cooling that is quiet is passive, which presents serious limitations. I don't think you'll have noise issues with a build like above though, especially if its properly dampened. It should have percieved sound of around 30db... which on the standardized "Loudness Comparison Chart, dba" is categorized as somewhere between a library and a quiet nighttime in a suburban community. If the noise really bothers you and you want to enhance your gaming experience, you can order a pair of Sennheiser HD280 Pros for $100, 32db of noise isolation. You will literally be able to put these on, with no sound, and hear nothing from the computer, so if you are playing music or gaming, no computer noise will distract you with those bad boys (i use them myself with louder fans actually).

Quote

- Is there any nice casing out there?

Probably the best case for cooling vs utility is the HAF 932 from Coolermaster, which is on that wishlist, a close second goes to the more expensive brother of the HAF 932 which is the Stacker 830 Evolution. I am a huge fan of the Stacker and have used it for 3 of my personal builds and in 10 customer builds, but the HAF beats it by a narrow margin. The HAF is a new case out this last year, so I've only used it a couple times so far, but I am duly impressed.

Quote

- I was thinking Dell because of the support. I currently have a P5n32-e SLI / 8800 Ultra / 4 Gb in raid 0 and it's a night mare. BIOS update never work (3 times I order at Bios Man), crash, computer shutdown, etc. It was a custom build from obviously someone who know jack.

The P5N boards had several issues, but Asus support is pretty decent. The main issue with Asus boards is the driver packages and utilities they release tend to be subpar. It should have been possible to troubleshoot and solve the crashing issues. If you sent it off to get the BIOS updated and they failed to do so, they should have been taken out back and had their head bashed in with a golf club. Of that generation, the better board was the P5K series.


EDIT: For more detail, I've used the P5K in 16 builds, personally and customer builds, and it had none of the issues of P5N. This is why it's important to do research before you build so you can pick the parts. Do be aware that X58 mobos (all of them, from any manufacturer) had a large amount of problems at release with pins being bent in the CPU socket due to bad supply from Taiwan where all the sockets were manufactured. This problem has mostly been alleviated, and unless you get an old revision/batch mobo, shouldn't bother you. Other than that, you are good to go with X58 and EVGA makes the best boards for it hands down.

My personal build I'm typing on right now is actually using a P5K Deluxe/Wifi-AP mobo, Q6600 @3.6GHz, 16GB of DDR2 @ 800MHz 3-3-3-8 timings, an 8800GTX OCed by 20%, with a single 640GB WD Black as my system drive.

Quote

- I was thinking to go SLI but I clearly preferd NOT playing with profile and update. So, Nvidia GTX 295 is the best one right now?

The GTX 295 card is still considered SLI, just so you know. It's two GPUs on one physical card, with an internal SLI bridge. In fact, the GTX275 is equivalent to half of a GTX295, but has more overclocking potential, better cooling, higher reliability, and lower cost, so 2x GTX275 is roughly equivalent to 1x GTX295, for less money with the trade off of taking up 4 slots in your box instead of 2. The version of the GTX275 I wishlisted for you is factory overclocked by 12% and still is well within nVidia thermal specifications when used in an ambient temperature of 75F. If you have it setup right, you don't have to mess with profiles, just have to ensure you keep your drivers up to date. If you really don't want to hassle with SLI, the best single-card solution is either a GTX 285 (not dual GPU) or an ATI 5870, although for the price to performance difference it'd be more reasonable to just drop to one GTX275 or go the ATI route.

I hesitate to recommend ATI cards for Aion, since there are SEVERAL known issues with ATI cards and Aion, mainly due to the drivers. If these were to improve in the future, I will say that ATI beats nVidia hands down every time when it comes to price to performance ratio (although nVidia always makes the chart toppers). The new 5870 is a very compelling GPU, and I look forward to using it in several builds in the future. At the moment though, I still recommend the purchase and usage of nVidia cards.

Quote

- I was thinking to go overclock but only if it's a "push here" button. (Someone recall the "Turbo" on old 33mhz - 66mhz ?) I have spend countless time overclocking CPU and playing with NorthBridge/SouthBridge voltage, etc...) It's too counterproductive. ASUS have a simple +X% overclock function, enough for me.

If you use the built-in Dummy OC, that's essentially what it is. A turbo button. It'd be better to have whoever custom builds it for you (if you don't do it yourself) overclock it for you at a safe speed for multiple environments (on a 920, 3.6GHz is guaranteed safe overclock for any chip in the batch). In addition, there are great very easy to follow guides with decent guidelines for OC for the i7. I had an i7 920 running at 4GHz stable within 15 minutes of booting the system up, the first time I had ever dealt with the chip.

Quote

- I was looking to go raid 0 SATA with 10k drive. Does 3 drive make a major difference?

Yes, each drive you add to an array with RAID0 increases the overall speed, however each drive you add also decreases the reliability of the array exponentially. In other words, the reliability of a RAID 0 array is equal to the number of drives minus one as the exponent of the reliability factor of a single drive, whatever it is that you are using in the array. In the system I wishlisted for you, it was going to use 2x Velicoraptor 300GB in RAID 0 and a 1TB drive for data storage/security. It is possible with the purchase of an additional RAID card (not using on-board) that you could increase data security by having a 640GB drive running alongside the 2xRaptor and have a mirror between the 640 and the array (although this could cause some slowdowns making the speed increase from RAID 0 not really worth it).

In addition, if you do go for 3 drives, it opens up the option of RAID 5, which provides SOME speed improvements on reads only, but on writes will cause a slowdown (depending on the RAID controller and drive controller logic cards). If you are doing that, getting it setup properly for good performance is much more complicated and more than likely much more expensive (onboard RAID 5 is not known for good performance).

In short, stick with RAID 0 2 Raptors and throw in more 1TB drives if you need more storage. You should never need more than 600GB for your OS + Apps + Games anyway, cause you're storing your porn, movies, warez, music, anime, and other assorted goodies on the 1TB drives.

Quote

- I was thinking to get a Klondike sandwich, anyone want some?

Thank you!

You googled it didn't you?

Daeva said:

Definitely get 2x Radeon 5870. 2x Radeon 5870 > GTX 295. IMHO even one would be enough to comfortably play any game out there on high resolution, but hey, if money isn't an issue then go for it :sparkles:

As I say above, yes, the new 5870 looks extremely promising and I plan to use it in future builds, however currently ATI cards have known existing issues with Aion so if you're building a box with Aion in mind, that would be a bad choice currently. I'm sure the issues will be ironed out, but it'd suck to spend 3 grand on a box and then crash every 10 minutes in the game you just spent 3 grand so you could play, wouldn't you agree?

In addition, 2xGTX275 Superclocked will handle any game you throw at it just fine, for around the same pricepoint as 2x 5870.

Anashel said:

Hi!

I re-do the wishlist in egghead.ca to see the price variation.

Newegg.ca - Once You Know, You Newegg

For unknow reason, they dont sell Thermal Compound in Canada. Guess the country is cold enough. =P

Comments:
- Some part were not available, so I took the closest one.
- 6 Gb is enough for me.
- I want the EVGA board with the BIOS reset button! From what I understand, it revert the BIOS back to it's original state in case of BIOS corruption. This is awesome.

Comments?

Let me create an account and redo the wishlist on newegg.ca then. The diamond skull stacker is like $300 more than a normal stacker for some gawdy paint job when the normal stacker looks pretty sexy by itself, the HAF 932 is still highly recommended for this build.

In addition, instead of the EVGA 760-Classified find either the 759-Classified or use the 758-A1 (same as the Classified except without the sticker and has 8-phase PWM instead of 10-phase PWM). The 760-Classified is missing the N200 chipset colocated by the south bridge that is in the 759-Classified, so while it does support SLI (all X58 do), it isn't as efficient or accelerated as well as on the 759. If you go ATI route or no SLI, the 760-Classified is technically an easier layout to work with than the 759 though in the build.

Please go ahead and order 12GB of DDR3. Because different runs/batches of the part use different chips with DDR3 (the Corsair Dominator GT has used 3 different chips in the time it has existed, it's fairly stable now, and high performing) it is best to purchase all the memory at the same time from the same batch. When doing any overclocking, or running the RAM with factory specced enhanced performance profiles, it is especially important all sticks are from the same batch. So do yourself the favor and go ahead and order 12GB.

All EVGA X58 boards have the BIOS reset button, even the lowly X58 SLI LE, which is their cheapest board in that series. As above, please do not use the 760-Classified unless you are absolutely certain you will never use SLI, go for the 759-Classified or 758-A1 SLI instead.

Also, go ahead and purchase Win 7 now, official release is Oct 22nd, system builder copies I believe should be available as of Oct 1 (last week). You don't want to use Vista, you want to use 7, that is all.


I'll post a wishlist from newegg.ca sometime later when I get motivated to do so, I can't imagine they'd have any different parts selection. Some items may have been out of stock, but are definitely something they carry.

EDIT: On a related note, are you going to build this yourself or not? If you aren't, find out who you're going to have build it for you, because if they're based in the US, finding the parts on newegg.ca doesn't really matter.

EDIT2: Wow, Canadian Newegg doesn't have ****. No Thermalright or Noctua CPU coolers, no thermal paste (no really), no 300GB raptors, no FTW edition GTX275s (they do have superclocks though), and several other little tidbits missing. Kinda sad. I should do some research on better Canadian parts suppliers. Of course, if you have me build the system for you the point is moot cause you'll order from the US Newegg and have parts shipped to me and I'll ship you completed system.

This post has been edited by Totaledcow: 04 October 2009 - 01:51 PM

[fishstix]

If there was a rate-up function, i TOTALly would ^_-

[Anashel]

fishstix said:

If there was a rate-up function, i TOTALly would ^_-

You bet! Totaledcow, you rock. =)

Yes, I think you proved me you know well enough your stuff. I will send you a PM to talk about payment but let's keep technical discussion here so everyone can enjoy your wisdom. =)

About the spec:
Motherboard : Ok everyone, this is a major thing. That BIOS reset button can save your live. It worth it. Lets go with the 759.
RAM: 6 Gb is enough. By the time I will need 12 GB, price will have drop enough so I can order 12 Gb for the price of 6 GB.
Casing: Cant help it, I'm sold to that Plate Skulls casing even if it's 300$ more.
Fan: Check the one I select. I know it's 300 RPM less but 7 DBA less. Also Fluid Bearing
Card: Geforce SLI then.

Process:
Send me your price to build my rig and include the time needed to post all the detail about how you overclock each component. That will be great to share this with everyone.

Klondike issue:
Not at all, they sell them at the corner store.

Really excited about that little project!

[Demondred]

Alienware = Dell. They took them over ages ago, and customer support is in India. Have fun.

[Totaledcow]

Anashel said:

You bet! Totaledcow, you rock. =)

Yes, I think you proved me you know well enough your stuff. I will send you a PM to talk about payment but let's keep technical discussion here so everyone can enjoy your wisdom. =)

About the spec:
Motherboard : Ok everyone, this is a major thing. That BIOS reset button can save your live. It worth it. Lets go with the 759.
RAM: 6 Gb is enough. By the time I will need 12 GB, price will have drop enough so I can order 12 Gb for the price of 6 GB.
Casing: Cant help it, I'm sold to that Plate Skulls casing even if it's 300$ more.
Fan: Check the one I select. I know it's 300 RPM less but 7 DBA less. Also Fluid Bearing
Card: Geforce SLI then.

Process:
Send me your price to build my rig and include the time needed to post all the detail about how you overclock each component. That will be great to share this with everyone.

Klondike issue:
Not at all, they sell them at the corner store.

Really excited about that little project!

Yep, I agree on the fans, if the noise is important dropping to the F instead of the G will only lose you maybe 1-2% in airflow performance, but will be significantly quieter, and they have the same cost.

Also in regards to the Classified 759 vs 760, the 759 is apparently no longer available as EVGA claims to have fixed the SLI performance issues on the 760 in the most recent revision without using the NF200 chipset (which is good since the NF200 ran very hot). Based on that, and the fact I trust EVGA on the matter, I would recommend we go ahead with using a 760 Classified for the build and I will ensure that it of course has the latest firmware/BIOS updates during the build process.

I'd encourage you to reconsider on the case though, as the CSX collectors cases generally (and it does, in the case of the diamond skulls version) replace the side intake vent with a window instead. This would generally be fine, but in the case of the Coolermaster Stacker 830, the side intake is your primary intake with 4 120mm fans in place there. This basically removes 90% of the airflow in the case by no longer having a side intake, and it is ill advised to do this with an SLI setup and a Core i7 chip. The only other option I have is that with you approval I could remove the plexi from the side window and have a friend cut it in their shop to fit the 4 fans, but I don't think airflow performance would be as good as the default Stacker 830 that has mesh vents and filters.

In addition, the side window doesn't really let you see anything unless you completely remove the side intake fan door that is part of the stacker 830 design, but is still in place in the CSX version. Essentially the CSX takes the normal Stacker 830, repaints it, and then puts a window in where there should be a vent.

Another issue is that with the CSX version, you have no choice (without modding the case heavily) but to do a negative pressure airflow design, because you will have 3 exhaust (1 rear, 1 rear from the PSU, and 1 top exhaust) and 1 intake (in the front HDD cage). In the standard design you have 3 exhaust (1 rear, 1 rear from PSU, and 1 top) and 5 intake (4 side intake, 1 front intake). I generally remove one of the side intakes to make room for a tower sized CPU cooler and instead zip-tie mount it into the front of the case in line with the CPU cooler.

Let me know how set you are on the CSX, because it could change the thermal situation enough that I wouldn't feel safe recommending that you overclock the CPU.

-------------------------

Since everybody seems to be interested I figured I'd post some pictures from the last build I did for a client (I've got more photos, but I'm not going to share them all). It's part of my standard routine to take build process/overclock process photos of every system I build and optionally send them to the client at their request for them to use as they wish (some of my clients like to use them when they post on game forums to show off their box ;).

Anyway, without further ado, this is the last box I built for a client:

The Specs:
Core i7 920
12GB of Corsair Dominator 1600MHz DDR3 Triple Channel
EVGA 787 SLI LE X58 (2 steps down from Classified, much cheaper, but not as nifty)
EVGA GTX275
Noctua NH-U12P CPU Cooler
Coolermaster Stacker 830 Case (not pictured)
Corsair HX750 750W Modular PSU
6x Scythe Ultra-Kaze 133CFM 120mm fans



Starting Prime95 stability testing at 3.99GHz (4.0GHz) 1.35v vCore, Vdroop on

Finalized Overclock: 4Ghz (3.99) at 1.2v vCore, vDroop off, load peak 75C, GPU overclocked by 9% peak load 65C

System Scores: 14924 3DMarks on Vantage, 5.9 base, 7.9 peak Windows Experience Index (7.9 is max in Win 7), with the HDD bringing down the base score (5.9 is max with HDDs, must have SSDs to go higher)

This post has been edited by Totaledcow: 06 October 2009 - 08:28 AM
Reason for edit: Automerged Double-Post.

[Totaledcow]

bumping this