[ILLUSIA]

So what we know about Abyss Points. What for are they?

- to buy high lvl Abyss-armor and weapons. a high-end gear.
- to buy good potions (abyss-potions - same as elixirs from L2 - instant heal of big amount of hp/mp with long cooldown)
- and main thing - Abyss ranks. Which provide characters with powerfull skills. As devs said, a top ranked player becomes some kind of raid boss, a hero who can slay alone a full party (the words of Ken Choi).

what else?
- AP consumed not only by buying something they also get lower after you are defeated by a character of an opposite race

As the result of all these things it looks that getting high pvp ranks is a very difficult goal, but also a very attractive goal. Everyone wants to pwn and every serious pvp guild wants to have strong characters as their members as soon as possible. Aion is a pvp focused game A la guerre comme a la guerre (fr).

And now I'll write here the ideas of AP rank farming which appeared at russian Aion forums long time ago since we got first information about Abyss-rank system.

So a single person wants to get a high ranked character in a very short time. He buys a second account, levels there a character of an opposite race and then rez-kills him every day in a safe place in the Abyss. A pvp guild wants to get many top-ranked members. What shall they do? lol They'll buy boxes for a full party of AP donors and rape them till they get bored. Lost many AP at the siege? Oh no problem, dude, go and rez-kill that bot. :D

You know guys I'm not happy with these opportunities. But if the game have this opportunity in terms of high importance of AP and Abyss ranks it'll be used.
Now I'd liked to read your opinion. And especially I'd liked to see the answers from community coordinators (if they have any) about how they are going to prevent such things and did they even think about it?

This post has been edited by ILLUSIA: 17 November 2008 - 10:51 PM

[Fleiva]

Im certainly sure I've read that the abyss points reward would depend on the ammount of abyss points your enemy has, and that it would also be level dependant.

Can't recall where though, way too much info to bookmark every single word, but I'm aboout 80% sure of what Im stating.

[Sabre]

Ugh I hope NCSoft will handle it accordingly, I'm sure it won't make it past all their minds so there will hopefully be something done to prevent that

@Fleiv, I believe you're right, I read that somewhere as well, at least with the level statement. And it makes sense that killing a "bot" which'll have 0-100 AP wouldn't benefit you much, seeing as they're a weak opponent

[ILLUSIA]

Fleiva said:

Im certainly sure I've read that the abyss points reward would depend on the ammount of abyss points your enemy has, and that it would also be level dependant.
Can't recall where though, way too much info to bookmark every single word, but I'm aboout 80% sure of what Im stating.

I never heard such things. The only restriction of getting AP is a level of your target. You won't get AP if he's much lower level then your character. There were no any other restrictions in beta. At least nobody noticed what you just wrote. Thats why I want to get answeres from Ayase or Kieron.

This post has been edited by ILLUSIA: 01 September 2008 - 08:52 PM

[Fleiva]

Did you get the same ammount of AP with every character you killed?

[Calindor]

NCSoft should ban for duplicate IP's on both faction's, even if its not this, ppl can be doing it just to see where enemy clans are heading and stuff...

They could implement something like you wont get AP from killing a person twice within 5 minutes (however if that person died to 2 different people in 5 minutes, then both would get AP from it).

Could implement a short term and long term AP system, for example if you have a ton of AP, but die several times in a short amount of time, you wont give as much, or hardly any at all.

[Fleiva]

I still think the way I recalled seems a bit more simple and yet effective, if you have high ammount of abyss points, you give more on death, if you have no abyss points, you give nothing. You cant farm a character you made exclusively to feed you that way, cause to give abyss points to your main, you'd have to farm abyss points with your alt, which ends up being less effective than farming them with your main directly.

[ILLUSIA]

Fleiva
I could aswer this question if I had a second acc for the clean experiments. ^ ^ But I realy dont know. Only one person from Russia started to play in beta in the beginning of CBT2 and could enjoy the Abyss, the others started their low level characters in CBT3 most time played in PvE areas.

[helblar]

This is not out of the realm of not happening.
Top tier guild with 100 players, with 60 % with second accounts.
All of the second accounts are on the opposite faction.

Do the math!

[Fleiva]

ILLUSIA said:

Fleiva
I could aswer this question if I had a second acc for the clean experiments. ^ ^ But I realy dont know. Only one person from Russia started to play in beta in the beginning of CBT2 and could enjoy the Abyss, the others started their low level characters in CBT3 most time played in PvE areas.

Then we would really need to test that before saying that the ammount of abyss points of the victim doesn't influence on the rewards for the killer, wouldn't we? ;)

[Calindor]

Fleiva said:

I still think the way I recalled seems a bit more simple and yet effective, if you have high ammount of abyss points, you give more on death, if you have no abyss points, you give nothing. You cant farm a character you made exclusively to feed you that way, cause to give abyss points to your main, you'd have to farm abyss points with your alt, which ends up being less effective than farming them with your main directly.

I disagree with that idea mainly from my L2 olympiad experience...Yes people who are high on points generally reflects a better player, and you should get rewarded, but there has to be a limit, it cant solely be a percentage...its like L2, say you are farming through the month and manage to get 400 points, well then you meat another farmer who has the same amount of points, and he gets lucky with a fluke and takes you down, you might lose weeks worth of farming, and maybe ruin your whole chance at whatever it is you're trying to accomplish (hero in l2, or maybe buying an item in Aion)...it would work if there was a set limit on how many points you could lose. And of course people with extremely low points shouldnt get rewarded that much for beating you.

With that system people might get ahold of old no longer used chars and just farm the AP off of them...they could have some kind of system where the AP gets reset monthly, and your previous AP cannot be lost, maybe it gets converted to something else, or you just cannot lose it.

[Shmak]

Quote from the wiki:

Quote

Abyss Points

Abyss points are earned from fighting against the opposing race or the opposing NPC guards... Abyss Points are not only earned, but can also be lost when killed by enemies in combat: defeating a higher ranked enemy yields more Abyss Points, and also less points are lost if defeated by a higher ranked enemy.

The fact that you can lose abyss points from combat means that you can't possibly give them up infinitely to the opposing race, therefore they cannot be farmed. As long as there is something of an exchange going on, the situation outlined here doesn't seem possible. Sorry Illusia =d

[ILLUSIA]

Fleiva said:

Then we would really need to test that before saying that the ammount of abyss points of the victim doesn't influence on the rewards for the killer, wouldn't we? ;)

Were did I write it? :p I just posted the words of devs about restrictions on targets level. There were no any other official comments. I only want to know what they are going to do with AP farmers from a trusted source.
btw even if they will make a minimum AP of enemy for getting AP throuh his kill. Its not a problem too. AP-donor kills a second box buffer or somebody's alt char from your race, then all you party kills the donor. There are many variants. :)

[justamemory]

Shmak said:

Quote from the wiki:



The fact that you can lose abyss points from combat means that you can't possibly give them up infinitely to the opposing race, therefore they cannot be farmed. As long as there is something of an exchange going on, the situation outlined here doesn't seem possible. Sorry Illusia =d

yeah cause there'd be a point where the bot loses all points or cannot retain as much as necessary to be in a condition to provide the leecher with more, and no more AP can be gained by the other character without doing at least twice the work (on the char(s) that are supplying the AP). Then, it's like they'd need to bot the bots and then bot those ad infinitum :)

Example: Char1 is lower rank than Char2, Char2 is higher rank than Char1. Char1 kills Char2 to gain nice amounts of AP because lower rank gains more for killing higher rank. Eventually, Char2's AP go down enough to lower their rank below that of Char1. To continue maximizing AP per kill, time must then be spent independently to raise the rank of Char2 in order for Char1 to continue leeching Char2 for optimal AP. For every extra higher rankedCharX the amount of time/work/effort to return them to a position to provide maximum AP per kill for the lower ranked Char is effectively increased as their death count increases.

Plus, as soon as Char2's rank goes below Char1, Char1 receives much less AP per kill. So, even if Char1 is satisfied leeching minimal amounts of AP, it would take quite a while to gain considerable advantage from this technique. So, Char1 either spends lots of time leeching Char2 for minimal AP per kill, or Char1 switches to Char2 (or CharX) to regain the AP they lost to give Char1 the advantage of more points for lower rank killing higher rank. Both seem ridiculously tedious to me.

So, wouldn't it just be more effective NOT to bot and to just find people in the abyss randomly--better they spend their time leveling their abyss rank themselves while all you gotta do is come along and gank em for teh leet APs?

This post has been edited by justamemory: 01 September 2008 - 10:29 PM

[ILLUSIA]

Quote

defeating a higher ranked enemy yields more Abyss Points, and also less points are lost if defeated by a higher ranked enemy.

Its about geting AP from a higher ranked char. No words about AP from lower ranked.
if it sounded another way: You won't get AP from lower ranked character I'd be satisfied, but ther is no a word about it. Its just an info that its advantageous to kill higher ranked characters and that its not so disapointing to die from the hand of a stronger player. Nothing else.

I prefer a fair game. But I can remind you how do Lineage II clans get clan points besides normal clan wars. They level up bot-train academics to 40 lvl and they rez-kill donor newb-char clans. It is reality.

This post has been edited by ILLUSIA: 01 September 2008 - 10:36 PM

[Shmak]

You cannot subtract from zero?

[Fleiva]

Calindor said:

I disagree with that idea mainly from my L2 olympiad experience...Yes people who are high on points generally reflects a better player, and you should get rewarded, but there has to be a limit, it cant solely be a percentage...its like L2, say you are farming through the month and manage to get 400 points, well then you meat another farmer who has the same amount of points, and he gets lucky with a fluke and takes you down, you might lose weeks worth of farming, and maybe ruin your whole chance at whatever it is you're trying to accomplish (hero in l2, or maybe buying an item in Aion)...it would work if there was a set limit on how many points you could lose. And of course people with extremely low points shouldnt get rewarded that much for beating you.

With that system people might get ahold of old no longer used chars and just farm the AP off of them...they could have some kind of system where the AP gets reset monthly, and your previous AP cannot be lost, maybe it gets converted to something else, or you just cannot lose it.

Then again, you're using your experience in L2 to say you disagree with me, but then again, this isn't L2 ^^

For the heros system, we don't know if there will be 1 hero per class or 2 heros per class (1 each race) so the point about someone lucky killing you and getting the hero status cause of that instead of you might be totally useless in this conversation. I also was counting on a limit for the ammount of abyss points per kill, obviously, full loot on death sounds kinda harsh for this kind of game where abyss points are so important (im a huge fan of death loot, but you cant create a huge effort around that).

I think that it was said hero cycles would change every week, it's obvious that there's some kind of rank reset also.

ATM, the few facts we have about the hero system are kinda old interviews and ken choi naming them in one of his video interviews, let's try to stick to that as much as we can without going to the "in other games" arguments.

This post has been edited by Fleiva: 01 September 2008 - 09:54 PM

[Zxya]

Indeed. This system will just work fine as long as you cannot reset points or anything like that. The best way to become the best of your class is just getting into the best Guild and grind grind grind in the abyss on enemys for days.

You actualy get something you deserve in this game for putting allot of effort into something instead of a stupid title like WoW or some Useless L2 Glow

As a add on the above post:

I guess there will be multiple "heros" since everybody is able to achive this rank just like World of Warcraft PRE TBC.

It will become a battle of the titans. The best against the best.

[ILLUSIA]

Zxya said:

You actualy get something you deserve in this game for putting allot of effort into something instead of a stupid title like WoW or some Useless L2 Glow

L2 hero is not just a glow. they get f**ing good skills. =)
but I'll agree with you in one thing. Aion rank system is a new face of grind ))

[Calindor]

Fleiva said:

Then again, you're using your experience in L2 to say you disagree with me, but then again, this isn't L2 ^^

For the heros system, we don't know if there will be 1 hero per class or 2 heros per class (1 each race) so the point about someone lucky killing you and getting the hero status cause of that instead of you might be totally useless in this conversation. I also was counting on a limit for the ammount of abyss points per kill, obviously, full loot on death sounds kinda harsh for this kind of game where abyss points are so important (im a huge fan of death loot, but you cant create a huge effort around that).

I think that it was said hero cycles would change every week, it's obvious that there's some kind of rank reset also.

ATM, the few facts we have about the hero system are kinda old interviews and ken choi naming them in one of his video interviews, let's try to stick to that as much as we can without going to the "in other games" arguments.

I guess I wasnt clear, it had nothing to do with heroes in L2, or the hero system in Aion, it had to do with the transfer or loss/gain from points based on your overall points, whether its olympiad points in L2, HK farming in WoW, or AP farming in Aion.

This post has been edited by Calindor: 01 September 2008 - 10:13 PM