[Cel]

I did some tests using a few alts of mine to come up with a physical damage equation. It took longer because of random number generators.

Base damage done =

   (Base Weapon damage + Enchanted Weapon damage)

   * (Power / 100 + Weapon Passive% bonus / 100 + %Skill bonuses / 100)

   + Attack bonuses + Skill damage bonus

* Base weapon damage is the weapon damage itself on the tooltip (before enchants).
* Enchanted weapon bonus is from +'ing your weapon, and it's a static addition. (so, 40 for a +10 bow)
* Power is your power stat at the top of the screen, most physical classes use 100, or 110, or higher if flying.
* Weapon Passive % bonus is your weapon mastery skill you get. It depends on the skill. For me, I tested staff mastery @ 25 (15%), and Archery Mastery @ 25 (4%). For others you'd have to do math yourself. Staff Mastery @ L10 (10%). Mace Mastery @ L10 (27%), etc.
* % Skill bonuses are for abilities like Rage Spell for Chanters, and Devotion for Assassins and Rangers.
* Attack bonuses are static bonuses like Victory mantra, Attack mana stones, attack stats on weapons.
* Skill damage bonus is the amount of damage added because you're using a skill, such as Surprise Attack. Most numbers are baked into the tooltip number, but it's easy to figure out for surprise attack, since the bonus damage is conditional, and written elsewhere. If you're not using a skill, it's 0.

The damage will be further reduced by Pdef (depending on the mob/player), and PvP Bonuses. I haven't tested those out, but they have been documented. (Pdef / 10 for damage reduction, and -50% for PvP)

If the damage crits, a crit multiplier is added. For the weapons I've tested (staff/bow), the crit multiplier is 1.7 (not 1.8 as others have said for weapons).

Crit multipliers that I tested.

Dagger - 2.3x

Sword  - 2.2x

Mace   - 2.0x

Greatsword - 1.8x *

Polearm - 1.8x *

Bow    - 1.7x

Staff  - 1.7x

* Tests done by kr0sis a few posts down.

Finally for auto attacks, if a weapon is multi-strike it can do more damage as well. My testing with staves showed about 1:1:1 ratio doing extra 0, 1, or 2 hits. Extra hits do 10% damage each, and rounded down based on the base damage done. So, auto attacks for staves on average do about 10% more damage.

Lastly, numbers are floored (rounded down) at the very end for auto-attacks. My crit rating was too low to get a complete set of numbers to see how flooring occurred on skill crits.

I tested skill damage with Hallowed Strike II lvl 9 (+125 damage), and Stunning Shot I lvl 9 (+245 damage).
Stunning shot is unique that it has the property to sometimes do double base damage (about 30%~1/3 of the time). Since defense reduction is calculated once, you do a bit more than 2x the base damage, and that number can crit too, it can end up doing a lot of damage. Hence, since it can break 2k damage at even level 30, it's very useful against high defense targets, such as gigantic chests.

Since I was using 2hd weapons, my KD rate for staves was about 22% over all crits.

====
Skill tooltip damage: (Even though it shows on the tooltip, the damage doesn't match, and uses the formula above, but this is for reference anyways:

Tooltip damage = Base skill damage 

  + Base Weapon damage * ((Power + 100) / 2) / 100

* Base skill damage is how much the skill does at its without the weapon damage added on. For tooltips, it's the min or max value that's used.
* Base weapon damage is your unenchanted damage. (Enchanted bonus damage doesn't show on the tooltip)
* Power is your power stat.

If you need to find base skill damage, you can reverse the formula above, or check it barehanded. With fists, the min~max is 16~20 (if you have 100 power), 17~21 (if you have >100 power), and 15~19 (if you have <100 power). Aionarmory and other websites with melee skill info always uses the 100 power with fists to show their stats, but it also depends on the skill, since it usually refers to level 0, instead of level 1. (You can always check in game though).

Don't ask my why for 110 Power you only see a 5% increase in the weapon damage part, it's just how I got the tooltip to match up.

=====================
If anyone wants me to explain a bit on how I came to the conclusions I will, there was quite a bit of data involved.

But the training dummy in Poeta reduces damage done to it by 25, so I guess it has 250 Pdef according to gerbator's calculations.

Edit: Added a crit multiplier table based on additional tests I did.
Edit: Added crit multipliers from kr0sis' post a few posts down.

This post has been edited by Cel: 22 December 2009 - 04:10 PM

[Vicarra]

Haven't been able to apply this in practice on my own chars yet but the numbers I crunched during my lunch break look pretty sound. I have two chanters, one with staff mastery 2 and one with staff mastery 3. If you need any data to try and work out the % each level gives, let me know what weapons / set up you were using for your gathering and I'll send you my data as well :)

[Diao]

So as I stated in the other thread, 1 attack from manastone adds exactly 1 damage to everything, including weapons. Good to know the information I'd read on Korean bbs and suspected was correct.

[Borathian]

does attack actually increase damage or does it just reduce enemy PDef? like how accuracy and block/parry/evasion are related.

from what ive read +1 attack is the same as reducing enemy PDef by 10, but if an opponent has zero armor, does +attack increase damage further? is it possible to have negative Pdef?

(based on the 150 attack, 500 pdef (150-50 = 100 hp dmg; ive seen in a few posts)

i havent noticed the tooltips updating except for when i change weapons, but with buffs etc, the tooltip #s dont change.
is +attack only for auto attack damage and skills are on a different formula? with all the translated guides and stuff, they almost all say the samething but there is no in depth analysis that i have seen.

example, if i have 150 attack, it would take 1500 PDef to negate it, and i would be left doing whatever damage would apply before attack is taken into account, at minimum 1 damage.
OR
if i was doing a consistant 150 damage, it would take 1500 PDef to negate that damage correct?

skills like weakening blow that reduce enemy armor, should provide a direct 10(-100 pdef) point increase in damage done, but i havent seen that to be the exact effect.

[Cel]

Vicarra said:

Haven't been able to apply this in practice on my own chars yet but the numbers I crunched during my lunch break look pretty sound. I have two chanters, one with staff mastery 2 and one with staff mastery 3. If you need any data to try and work out the % each level gives, let me know what weapons / set up you were using for your gathering and I'll send you my data as well :)

It would be best if you can do your own analysis ;-p. That helps me confirm my data with someone else.
But if you want to know my tests, here's what I did.

I made a macro to use Hallowed Strike every 9 seconds.
/Skill [%Variable0]
/Delay 9
[then copy and paste until you fill the macro].

That way I hit the macro every 2 min while watching TV or something.

Then I just analyzed the combat logs, and removed all the frivolous data.

For the tests:
I had a level 30 chanter, with the level 25 staff mastery skill, and I tested it with a few staves.
First staff was the level 24, wanderer's staff (Green), the bonus was meh. None of my armor had any +Attack on it, and I didn't use a +Attack title.
Test 1: No buffs
Test 2: Victory Mantra II
Test 3: Victory Mantra II and Rage Spell.
Then I used a second staff, the Level 18, Kumbacha's staff (Green), and the nice thing was it has a really nice testing range 80-120 damage.
Test 4: Victory Mantra II, and Rage Spell
Test 5: No buffs.

If you want to tell me what staff mastery 3 gives as a passive bonus, here's how to figure it out.
(1) Make sure you have no buffs
(2) Make sure you have no weird titles.
(3) If you have extra Attack stones in armor, you can remove the armor, if it's in the weapon, they need to be subtracted from the green number if you hover over your attack. Also, make sure the staff isn't enchanted.
(4) Figure out the average damage of your weapon (min damage + max damage ) / 2.
(5) % Bonus = The green number on your character screen (without attack stones) / Average weapon damage.

For example, with my level 18 staff equipped (80-120), average damage is 100.
My character screen shows 110 (+15). And 125 is the total if I don't hover over it.
The % bonus is 15 / 100 = 15% (always round up). The reason the 110 is white is because it takes into account the fact that there's a bonus from Power.

-------------------------

Borathian said:

does attack actually increase damage or does it just reduce enemy PDef? like how accuracy and block/parry/evasion are related.

from what ive read +1 attack is the same as reducing enemy PDef by 10, but if an opponent has zero armor, does +attack increase damage further? is it possible to have negative Pdef?

Increasing attack and reducing pdef are essentially the same thing. I'm fairly certain that pdef can go below 0, but I don't have any characters that can test it out easily at the moment. Since you are a glad, see if you can duel someone with no armor, and use your Weakening Severe Blow, and ask your buddy to see if their Pdef goes below 0. My suspicion is that it will, only because the magic equivalent stat, Fire/Wind/Earth/Water Resistences can go below 0 as well. I'd like to think other stats can go below 0 as well.

So, I don't expect there to be a cap, and both increase damage anyways. Just one is for yourself, and the other is a debuff that helps everyone else who is damaging the target.

Quote

(based on the 150 attack, 500 pdef (150-50 = 100 hp dmg; ive seen in a few posts)

i havent noticed the tooltips updating except for when i change weapons, but with buffs etc, the tooltip #s dont change.
is +attack only for auto attack damage and skills are on a different formula? with all the translated guides and stuff, they almost all say the samething but there is no in depth analysis that i have seen.

example, if i have 150 attack, it would take 1500 PDef to negate it, and i would be left doing whatever damage would apply before attack is taken into account, at minimum 1 damage.
OR
if i was doing a consistant 150 damage, it would take 1500 PDef to negate that damage correct?

skills like weakening blow that reduce enemy armor, should provide a direct 10(-100 pdef) point increase in damage done, but i havent seen that to be the exact effect.

It's hard to test exact effects for 2 reasons. (1) There's randomness in your autoattack damage. (2)All the pdef reducing skills last a very short period of time. I personally don't trust the combat log that much to be able to figure out whether the next attack is affect by the debuff or not, since I can't tell when the debuff falls off. So, unless you're really careful with a test, it's going to be hard to do.

If I feel like it, I might try it out to confirm, but probably unlikely. On the other hand, it's not too hard to do with a simple macro, while I'm bored and watching TV.

I have mentioned in my post how tooltips are calculated. It's correct they don't include damage from Attack stones, but based on my testing with buffs, and such they do affect damage as well. My understanding is that each skill just adds extra damage + 100% weapon autoattack damage. But of course, I haven't tested it with every skill.

If you have 150 attack, it should take 1500 pdef to negate it. However, I never did any tests with pdef here, so, I can't really comment on it based on my data. But it should be correct. Remember there's always randomness, so there are times you'd do more than 1 damage, and the other times where you'd do less, it would still say 1.

-------------------------

I wanted to give an example data set of how I calculated staff damage:

Here I used a 80-120 staff, and staff mastery from level 25 (15% bonus). Buffs I used were Victory Mantra II (+15 attack), and Rage spell (+15% damage).

Base  Hit(C) Hit(A)  Crit(C) Crit(A)

80    102    102     173.4   173

81    103.4  103     175.78  175

82    104.8  104     178.16  178

83    106.2  106     180.54  180

84    107.6  107     182.92  182

85    109    109     185.3   185

...

100   130    130     221     221

...

120   158    158     268.6   268

* Base is the base staff damage value
* Hit © - is calculated for a normal hit
* Hit (A) - an actual hit value I saw when hitting the dummy
* Same for Crits © - Calculated, and (A) Actual.

This was on the training dummy, which reduces damage by 25 (so I guess 250 pdef).
Hit for 80 is:
80 * (Power + Passive + Rage) + Victory - Pdef/10
Power is 110 for a chanter, passive is 15%, Rage is 15%, Victory Mantra is +15 damage, and PDef is 250.
80 * (110 + 15 + 15)/100 + 15 - 250/10 = 102

The same can be done for all the other values. The number gets floored, and then you see a number. From this series, you actually can see that given my setup it's impossible to do 108 damage, which is a number I never saw from all the times I hit the dummy. Crit took a while to figure out, but it takes the unrounded value and multiplies it, for auto-attacks.

When people are looking for crit multipliers it's good to try to find the min or the max, but probability isn't always nice. It takes a while depending on your crit rate.

I did similar tests for maces, swords, and daggers, to get the numbers. Daggers were the easiest seeing as they have a very small range, so it was pretty easy to see that they have a 2.3 multiplier.

For the tests I did:

68,157

69,160

71,163

72,166

73,169

75,172

76,175

77,178

79,181

The multiplier works out well here to around 2.3 for each damage pair.

Edit: Fixed code stuff.

This post has been edited by Cel: 12 December 2009 - 10:04 PM
Reason for edit: Automerged Double-Post.

[reflexion]

idk how you did that but, well made, it looks clean.im happy you did all that cuz alot of us was kinda clueless and was actually making up numbers lolz. you Clean my mind of alot of things now.

Thank you.

[kr0sis]

I just leveled a glad up to 10 to test out greatsword and polearm; both appear to be 1.8x crit multiplier. I only tested auto-attacks for these two, not abilities. Min-max damage for the GS was 92-99 normal, 168-177 crit. Min-max for polearm was 47-104 normal, 86-188 crit

I can also confirm your 1.7 / 2.0x multipliers for staff/mace.

[Ferro]

This is probably best tested with daggers, because their min/max damage are very close to each other, which will eliminate some randomness.

[jaydub]

i would disagree on the formula because it doesn't work with daggers. i dont have the numbers in front of me atm. i use dagger/sword and dagger main hand gets higher crits then sword despite the sword having higher base damage by like 29. 2.3/2.2 just cant work if this is the case. it is at least nice to see someone else acknowledge the dagger crit mod is greater then sword because takes 5 seconds to test yet no one ever does.

[Diao]

You do realize the critical bonus is multiplied in as a final step after all the other calculations are complete, correct? If your base damage on sword is 29 higher than the dagger, then you only need a minimum base damage of 638 for the dagger crit to outperform sword crit. Given that a decently geared 50 assassin or gladiator will have around 450 attack and a dagger with 150 top end, after bonuses, it's not unlikely that you would crit higher with dagger than sword.

[Makakilo]

Cel, on the %skill bonuses, exactly how/what number are you putting in the equation? For example: Rage Spell will give me 35 extra attack (added into the 'green' tooltip number). Are you saying that that number is then further reduced by dividing by 100???

[Diao]

I believe you misunderstood which number to enter into the formula. Rage Spell I - Skills - Aion gives you 15% bonus attack. As stated in the formula Cel wrote, you take the percent bonus (15) and divide by 100 to get .15 for your multiplier. It has nothing to do with the actual extra attack you gain from rage spell.

[Cel]

jaydub said:

i would disagree on the formula because it doesn't work with daggers. i dont have the numbers in front of me atm. i use dagger/sword and dagger main hand gets higher crits then sword despite the sword having higher base damage by like 29. 2.3/2.2 just cant work if this is the case. it is at least nice to see someone else acknowledge the dagger crit mod is greater then sword because takes 5 seconds to test yet no one ever does.

Although Diao made a good point in the post following yours, I also want to add that off hand weapons don't always do full damage. First, it probably depends on whether you had Advanced Dual Wielding I or II. I is for Scouts before level 10, and for gladiators before 40. II is for Scouts above level 10, and glads that have access to their second level stigma.

I'm fairly sure both incur penalties to the offhand, but my test was only with Advanced Dual Wielding II on my level 30 ranger.

For that test, I used 2x Divisive Dagger that happened to drop in the abyss for me. (I did my dagger crit test with them).
The main hand does normal damage. However, the offhand does less.

The off hand, has a 25% chance of doing either 100%, 75%, 66%, or 50% of the damage after defense modifiers. And those numbers can crit. So, there's a wide range of crits. I don't know what level you are, but because the offhand doesn't always do full damage could mean that you didn't see high crits. Not sure how long you tested your data with, but it's probably reasonable to not be able to see a big crit. Diao does make a point as well, but that depends on your gear.

For some data, for anyone who cares:
100%: 68, 69, 71, 72, 73, 75, 76, 77, 79
75% + 66% (mixed because the damage is close): 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59
- For 52, and 53, the number of hits actually was bigger than the rest of the numbers, I didn't use statistics to actually test if they were bigger since my sample size wasn't that big, so the overlap makes sense.
50%: 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39
- 35, and 36 had more hits, and I was expecting 9 numbers, and only got 7, so it could be numbers get doubled up.

Crits were more rare, and seem to fit into the camp better, but there's fewer overlap. On the other hand, my crit rate is low, so seeing frequency would have been too time consuming.

This probably only applies to Advanced Dual Wielding II. I have yet to test I, and I probably won't.

tl;dr: Off-hands do less damage than main hands 75% of the time.

-------------------------

Makakilo said:

Cel, on the %skill bonuses, exactly how/what number are you putting in the equation? For example: Rage Spell will give me 35 extra attack (added into the 'green' tooltip number). Are you saying that that number is then further reduced by dividing by 100???

Diao said:

I believe you misunderstood which number to enter into the formula. Rage Spell I - Skills - Aion gives you 15% bonus attack. As stated in the formula Cel wrote, you take the percent bonus (15) and divide by 100 to get .15 for your multiplier. It has nothing to do with the actual extra attack you gain from rage spell.

Exactly.
Rage spell is 15%
Devotion is 40%
Invincibility Mantra is 15%.
etc.

Just read the skill description.

This post has been edited by Cel: 19 December 2009 - 08:29 PM
Reason for edit: Automerged Double-Post.

[Tenebrou§]

Ok, let me wrap my brain around this for a second.

Using my Glad as an example, with dual wielding sword sword, if I want to get average DPS I would use the following formula:

(((Mainhand low damage range + Mainhand high damage range / 2) * (Power / 100 + Weapon Passive% bonus / 100 + %skill bonuses / 100) + Mainhand attack bonus) * ((Mainhand Critical Hit Rating / 1000 * Weapon Critical Modifier) + ((1 - Mainhand Critical Rating / 1000) * 1)) = MH Average Damage

Then:

MH Average Damage * (1.1 * .5 + 1 * .5) = MH Average Damage with Multi-Hit Chance (Sword Multi Hit, assuming 50% chance of 10% extra damage and 50% chance of regular damage)


Then:

((((Offhand low damage range + Offhand high damage range / 2) * (Power / 100 + Weapon Passive% bonus / 100 + %skill bonuses / 100) + Offhand attack bonus) * (.25 * 1 + .25 * .75 + .25 * .66 + .25 * .5)) * ((Offhand Critical Hit Rating / 1000 * Weapon Critical Modifier) + ((1 - Offhand Critical Rating / 1000) * 1)) = OH Average Damage

Note that the (.25 * 1 + .25 * .75 + .25 * .66 + .25 * .5) part is the factoring in equal chance of doing less damage with the off hand...

Then:

OH Average Damage * (1.1 * .5 + 1 * .5) = OH Average Damage with Multi-Hit Chance

Then:

(MH Average Damage with Multi-Hit Chance + OH Average Damage with Multi-Hit Chance) / Attack Speed after all modifiers = Average DPS


:dizzy: I'm sure I effed up somewhere, my calculations are suck >< Halp? Is this right?

[Diao]

That would be a very simplistic model of auto-attack DPS, yes. Calculating theoretical true DPS is nearly impossible, as it depends on your attack weaves, skill usage, and so forth.

[Cel]

Actually, calculating auto-attack DPS is probably the hardest part, given that you don't know you're opponents armor value. It can vary quite a bit depending on it.

Adding skills and skill weaving is actually not difficult, since every time you use a skill, it just adds some fixed extra damage (except weird ones like Stunning Shot). You do lose out on extra hits, but that can be easily accounted for. Extra skill damage is just skill damage / cooldown. Now if you add skill effects, such as those that lower Pdef, it gets a bit more complicated.

Also, I can't tell you the crit chance when dual weilding. Mostly because when you crit, you always crit with both weapons, so it could be an averaged value or something. That probably makes it the worst part of calculating DPS.

Overall, a spreadsheet for this info is pretty simple. DPS of course depends on weapon speed too, but formulas are known. However, working in skill rotations probably can give you an idea for the most ideal tank'n'spank boss situations, and there really aren't *that* many encounters. But with the damage, I hope at least people can choose which stat is better for them.

[Diao]

You can't just add skill damage/cooldown for DPS. There are too many variables for a simple calculation to be done for most classes. It would be possible to calculate maximum possible DPS assuming optimum rotation, and every proc occurring exactly as needed. However, given that we don't know when a mob would be knocked down for example, you cannot assume that Crippling Cut and Draining Blow will be used on CD for a gladiator, or Resonance Haze for a chanter. Cases like this exist for every single class. In addition, skill weaving will actually be difficult to calculate unless you know the exact base animation times for every skill, since skill usage resets the auto-swing timer. Assuming 0 latency and perfect timing, you could add in skill calculations and subtract autoattacks from the delay given, but that would require knowing animation times. At best we could write a simulator for combat with a mob that has certain stats.
Crit chance is calculated based on mainhand crit only. You can test this quite easily. Do a series of 1000 hits with 3 different weapons on a gladiator: Dagger, Sword, Mace. Assuming your crit is at or under the soft cap, you should have approximately 5% less crit with a sword than a dagger, and 9% less crit with a mace than a dagger. Then equip an offhand weapon with no bonus crit stat or manastones of a different weapon type from the mainhand, and do another 1000 hits. You will see that the crit rate is almost exactly the same, with minor variance due to RNG.

[StingerX]

pushing this for daLick

[Deliq]

StingerX, on 21 April 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:

pushing this for daLick

Yeah this is good stuff.

By the way did you know that polearm and greatsword passives work like a +9% base weapon attack buff while dagger/sword/mace passives give you whole +42%?

Quite some difference there aint it.

Armsfusion bonus doesnt count as base weapon attack too, its only a static increase like say with manastones.

[Azurian]

Deliq, on 27 April 2011 - 06:26 AM, said:

Armsfusion bonus doesnt count as base weapon attack too, its only a static increase like say with manastones.

if I'm not mistaken Armsfusion bonus increases the base weapon attack as opposed to what you think, since it acts like +enchanting your weapon.

tl;dr

no, just..... no.